The Smartphone conundrum

So all users in the H/PC community are acutely aware that ownership of a Piddle PC is just plain wrong. There are no excuses, you will be hunted down and delt with post haste

But what about the Smartphone? Most of us (myself most certainly not included) own a Cell phone as well as a H/PC. But these are Windows Mobile based devices, and some of you I know think this is heresy!

So my question is.

Is ownership of a Windows Mobile Smartphone acceptable as a H/PC user?

Hmmm, i wouldnt buy one but if it were free why not......would a palm os phone count i wouldnt buy one of those either but it wouldnt be a windows ce deivice to feel like im running away from the hpc ....besides i would play with it for 2 minutes get frustrated with out a keyboard, and say screw this...lol

When you say Windows Mobile smartphones, do you mean more like the SMT 5600 (which is more like a phone with some windows mobile added) or more like the Audiovox PPC 6600 (which is more like a PPC with some phone added in)?

Personally, if I were to buy either it would be the second of the two. Without a touch screen Windows Mobile seems to be kind of a waste.

However, I prefer Symbian smartphones over MS ones myself.

Edit: But there's nothing wrong with it one way or another. It's a phone. Yes, that's it. Perfectly fine.

Edited by corporate 2005-08-25 5:00 PM

I'm thinking of true WM smartphones, not PPC's with antenna (that means you Chiark)

Unlike C:Amie, most of us need the cell phone as our communicator, and that is one thing an HPC can't do Now that we need one, we need to choose. There are only two kinds of cell phones: smartphones and dumbphones.

Some people are better off with a dumbphone, like my mom Others should always get a smartphone, especially smart people like us

And then there are different kinds of smartphones. First, a phone without a keypad is plain wrong, no matter how smart the phone might be. Second, a cell phone larger than a PDA is also wrong. Third, Palm sucks. So what are we left with? Windows Mobile Smartphones. It is the ONLY choice!

i chose the second option but it isn't really my opinion (i don't think everyone needs a phone).
so why not. though i'm perfectly fine with my t39 ("dumbphone"? noo).

I just bought a t39m off of eBay, it's time for a step into the past

Although new to the HPC community...I've had a palm phone for 3 years(now the proud owner of a Kyocera 7135...lovely thing). Once you have it....you'll never go back. On the other hand, to type, email, and play Quake...there is just nothing better than my 720....

Macros

very good decision!!! and it's not the past, believe me!

Ok maybe this will help convince some ppl...





Attachments
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smartphone.JPG (37KB - 14 downloads)

..and what, other than the dumbed down shell, lack of keyboard and wrong screen size, is wrong with a pocketPC with antenna?

Sir, you're suffering from OS-envy - just because the PiddlePC can run Minimo quite happily, and has a fast processor and huggins of memory...

The HTC universal will change your mind.

it doesn't convince me
i wouldnt want to browse on it

HTC universal.. if only the screen were like the sig3's screen. that might be acceptable then! depending on the keyboard. i've tried the nokia 9500 keyboard and it's not so bad .. neither good.. for me. i think the HTC universal is similar to that..

btw my 900C can run minimo!!!
(and ram and cpu is enough for me)

Hey it's fine to "burst browse" on a Smartphone. So it doesn't work well with some graphics heavy sites, but it's more than adaquate for reading news and forums posts, especially those sites that work with the single column mode, such as HPC Factor as I have shown in the picture

It's also ok to type short emails, IM, or forum posts with the keypad using the T9 method... well if you're desperate and can't wait till you get to the next hotspot

About the Pocket PC problem... I have to agree PPC ain't good for any serious use, compared to HPCs at least. And I also agree it makes a lousy phone platform, because the use of the touch screen is often required for some phone operations such as accessing contacts, or call history etc. The size doesn't help either. The "Jam" is very close to acceptable size, and that's why it's so popular (my bro. in China has one), but it's still big compared to usual phones. And finally there's a problem with battery life. The PPC drains battery whether you turn it on or not, in order to refresh the RAM; the Smartphone saves everything in flash so when you turn it off it is really powered down. That helps to conserve battery, and in practical use when the Smartphone runs out of juice, it's just like a real cellphone; but when the PPC runs out, you lose data!

The HTC Universal is indeed very interesting. IMO it is a better Nexio, because of the compatibility with PPC apps. However better is also a whole lot more expensive, so I'll reserve judgement until I see both the Nexio XP40 and the HTC Universal are released. BTW, I think the Uni has a 4 inch VGA screen, so it'll probably have similar or equal pixel size as the Nexio or Sig3's 5 inch 800x480 screens. I hope to see a comparison in the future. As a phone, I am quite sure it will have all the problems I mentioned above, and possibly more - meaning it will suck.

Edited by takwu 2005-08-28 8:41 PM

well i'm too comfortable to bother with that (viewing pages on 100x100 pixels or even on qvga)... let alone the numeric keyboard of a phone! i have writing sms on it (so i use my hpc for that ).




yes it's a better nexio, will run every ppc apps without hacking and will have a much better keyboard..
sorry, the display isn't 4", it'll be only 3,5" or 3,7" (forgot which).
also, i saw a hx4700 in real life (it actually has 4" and it's not exactly like my sig3. pixels are smaller. there's a difference between 4" and 5".

as a phone it wouldn't suck so much for me. i need only sms and mobile internet. so if i can have everything in one package, relatively large screen, good keyboard, phone, good os, apps, everything.... ahh perfect would be an understatement.
if the sig3 had the ability of using a SIM card and had a gprs modem it'd be the perfect machine the htc universal.. .well i already said what my problems will be with it

Well the Smartphone screen is 176x220. The picture I took was a bit blurry, maybe I'll find a screen cap s/w for Smartphone to show the actual image. Like I said, it's only for the odd times when you have nothing better to do than rolling your thumbs in circles By no means is it for full blown web surfing.

I know carrying a PPC to the hotspot to do that kinda surfing is pretty silly. But somehow on the Smartphone, which you need for other reasons, reading up to date news directly from your favourite websites while waiting for your lunch and having the other hand in your pocket, the limitation of the screen seems to be in the back of my mind. Ok so maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. The point is that the phone browser is for a totally different kind of browsing, and the Smartphone one is one of the best.

To tell the truth, I have not much experience looking at the Nexio S160 (none at the Sig3) and just a bit more looking at the e830 that two of the people have in my local PPC club, and another has the Dell x50v. I thought the screens were similar, but it could just be my memory playing tricks (I'm old ). I might be getting that Asus A730 soon, so I'll have more first hand experience...

Oh, BTW, the SmartBook G138 does have GPRS, only that it's European frequencies, so I cannot use it here in N.America

Edited by takwu 2005-08-28 10:18 PM

yes i get your point there. i too sometimes would be happy with the possibility to do such things anywhere.
but: it's not often that i'd like to do these things (once a week?) and i don't have too much money either



i don't recommend the asus a730. get a real 730W, you at least get a spare battery with it. plus 128 mb ram. and wlan, of course. so the 730W is nice enough.
though if it'll just sit on your desk ithe 730 will be fine even if a costly gadget.
e830? it has 4", and the dell doesn't (3,7". in theory, you should see the diff!
in practice i never saw two ppc's at the same time so i don't know. or if i did i didn't compare them..
nor have i seen the sig3 with a vga ppc (or qvga for that matter) yet but i'll try to compare them sometime

G138: i know it has gprs. mhm, can it do sms as well? if it can, then it's a really nice feature. it's just too big to be a phone. sig3 has more chance to be my phone (if it had the hardware features.. or if i was willing to buy a gsm/gprs card for it)


Edited by cmonex 2005-08-28 10:41 PM

Hey, my piddle is a nice complement to my hpcs. Many times I just don't need the real features of my hpc, keyboard etall, and the piddle is a nice pos to entertain me and provide pim and games for short trips. I'd never have a piddle as a primary but it's a better secondary than any smartphone.

bleh, tiny screens, no thanks. I'll buy a gprs card for my hpcs when I really need a phone that web surfs n stuff.

The phone n ppc boys are snookered IMO. They can't have bigger screens without growiing their devices and loosing any size advantages. They can't keep upping the res on the ppcs without being impossible to read. Anyone want 1024x768 in a 4" screen? Lmao.

Things won't change for the better until projection virtual screens become widespread. Then the size of the device is moot. Point it at a smooth surface and blam, away you go. As large or small as you want. any res you want.

Or gimme a virtual eyepeice, any res I want, diopter adjustable, level of opacity to my liking.

Edited by wallythacker 2005-08-29 1:39 AM

Wally, I think you made an interesting point there, that when you do not need the full capabilities of your HPC, you use your PPC. In a *certain sense* , I am very happy with a HPC when I do not need the full power of a dektop/notebook.[See note below]

So, PC/Notebook -> HPC -> PPC ...

NOTE: Footnote moved Off Topic - HPC Zealots?

wally,
What exactly do you use the PPC for? Do you carry it along with the HPC, or do you take it in place of the HPC? I can't imagine myself doing either...

I don't think the mobile projector will work because I don't see a flat white wall everywhere I go, and the power consumption of such device isn't helping either.

The eye display thing seemed the answer at first, but in reality I think people still prefer the traditional way of seeing everything around us - not attached to our heads. Besides, it reminds me too much of the VirtualBoy

However I think there's a new way to solve the problem. It's called Auto Stereoscopic display (I think). Bascially it is a technology that allows a display to create a stereoscopic image, without the user wearing special glasses. Its main application obviously is to project a 3D image to the user. It's only in recent years that one company, Sharp, made such technology affordable enough for the public, in the form of desktop and laptop monitors:
http://www.sharp3d.com/

Another potential application of this technology is to allow a small display to be held very close to the user's eyes, while giving the impression of an image far away. This essentially gives the effect of the eye display model, without needing to attach it to the user's head. It will allow a high resolution screen on a small physical surface that seems a lot bigger. To put it into perspective, it will be like looking at your 15 inch monitor that is 2 feet away thru a 5 inch window that is only a couple inches away. This application of the technology is in my opinion the future of mobile device displays.

Edited by takwu 2005-08-30 3:57 AM

Hi Takwu,

If I'm driving in town or on short errands the piddle goes in my pocket always. I never need a pen/paper, daytimer or any of that crap. I always find a need to scribble notes or jot down a yard sale or a make a reminder for something. If I go boating and soak the piddle, who cares? Piddle works great for those simple things and for stuff too risky for the babies.

If I have time to kill waiting for something, out comes the piddle to play some games or listen to music. In theory I just sync it to my desktp when I get home and pull down the data to my hpc if it goes with me the next trip. (tho' syncing is driving me buggy, another tale.)

I generally take the hpc on longer trips (out of towners or all day affairs) for gps and doing real work when I have an hour to kill at a roadside lunch stop or I head to the beach and sit under a shady tree and read or write. The hpc always goes flying with me. Piddle is too small and fiddly to use while doing a million other things in the air.

Yea, that's pretty much how it works. Piddle for short local stuff, hpc for out of town or overnight stuff and hpc in the house exclusively. Tho' sometimes I stick the piddle in my pocket with MSN running when I'm moving around the house or yard. to keep in touch.

I suppose I could do all the short run stuff with the hpc but I tried that with the 690 and it struck me as too much work, haul it out, open it up, up the backlight to max, scribble a note or two, fold it up, put it in pocket, immediately remember something else I shoud record, repeat process. I never got used to the 690 keyboard. I loved the touch and feel but made too many errors. The 690 was too much fiddle and not enough hpc.

Would I ever upgrade my piddle to a vga one? Naw, then it's getting to close to being a real tool, course, only if you're lugging a wireless keyboard and can read the 4" screen properly. I can't.

I like my system, it works great for me. But I'm not in the daily rat race like so many others. If I were I might change my entire strategy, like finding a single machine to replace the piddle and hpc. But what choices have I? That's for another day.

But I firmly , with tongue planted in cheek, detest so called smartphones. I personally can't find any use for a screen smaller than a piddle. But that's me.

Oh, I never answered the original poll quetion with words. NO. I don't consider a true smartphone to be in the same league as a hpc.

Thx wally for the explanation.

I think the original question was rather it's ok to have both the Smartphone and the HPC, not trying to replace HPC with a SP.

I actually found the SP to be a good PIM device, in addition to a few other functions. You definitely don't need a much larger screen for picking your songs or playing a quick game of Pacman.

So I take it that there is one limitation for being a H/PC and a smartphone user... you cannto connect the H/PC over IR to the smartphone and dial-up through it?

Is that correct, or is that just Chiark's XDA?

Altho I never tried it, my Smartphone - Mio 8390, can be used as modem via IrCOMM or USB. Altho USB is for PC Windows only and you need to install their special software.

Interesting, can you give it a go, see if you can get your 728 to talk to the Internet over it?
If you can, I'll get it added to the HCL

mhm i thought the xda is able to work as a modem.. or is that only newer versions (xda II)? true there are some combo pda/phones that can't be used as a gprs modem.
anyway is a xda a plain smartphone?

Chris, defer my flogging 'till my next visit to the UK for dragging this thread back from the dead.

Now that I have a smartphone from my latest deal (Motorola mpx200, Tak, is yours a mpx200?) I can say with certainty that the screen is too small for me That's a shame because I admit the cool factor and size are appealing. The screen is really bright and clear but just too small for me.

I haven't tried to actually use the keypad to type anything but my past experience with cells wan't too rewarding. It takes me forever to type a contact in or try to type a message.

My Tungsten W is ideal for me. I have a phone and enough of a pda to play games and entertain myself when I find a few minutes. And all my PIM is there. I love the W screen and yes, the thumboard. I can type well enough to get something done. I also have graffiti if I don't feel like typing.

I can't play music on the W but that's a minor concern. I can carry my jukebox (ya, another thing to carry) if I really want music.

So, in a nutshell, my piddle does nothing now but collect dust. My W goes everywhere with me. I take a hpc if I really want music or I'm likely to hit a coffe joint with wifi.

If I'm taking extended trips it's still my W and a 720 and/or 6651 so I can write and surf. If it's a long trip I'll take my Amity also to have all my personal files.

So I have this cool smartphone I'm very unlikely to ever use

My Smartphone is the Mio 8390. I mentioned it in many places, including one of the posts in this theard You can also see the picture of it loaded with the HPC Factor page (the old one) at the beginning of the thread.

Also my device list is in my profile, so just click my name to see what I currently have (I no longer list what I used to have).

Like I said before, the screen is big enough for reading books and news etc. As a matter of fact AvantGo has recently released a beta for Smartphone, which is so very cool (and works perfectly so far in my experience). If you know any AvantGo user, who probably use it on a Palm or PPC (at least a Treo) and then show them you have the same thing on your flip phone... They'd, erm, flip... So, err, give a Go... Ok I better stop the puns

About the typing... well of course the keypad is not as good as a thumbboard. But T9 really helps (not sure if it's on the Motorola). Basically you just "dial" the word as if it's a phone number. For example if you want to type the word "pizza" you just dial 74992. If there is more than one word that match what you dial, you can select the intended one using up/down. I find the method quite acceptable for short notes. But it doesn't always work for names for obvious reasons, and the alphabet/number relation does need a bit of getting used to, even tho it's all printed on the keys.

What I found most useful is searching contact list with this method. When you are making a call, and start dialing, you can either use the number you dialed, or the names in your contact list that match what you dialed, or the numbers in the contact list. So for example if you dial 5646, you can either keep dialing the number, or pick from your contacts like "John" and "Johnny" (because they match the dialed number), or pick from numbers in your contacts that start with 5646.

And finally I must add that while the thumbboard might be able to do all this, it does require two hands to be used properly. Try typing "apple" on a Treo (or Tungsten W) with one hand and you'll see what I mean. In contrast, a keypad is almost restricted to single handed use. This I think is largely overlooked when people are picking PDA phones. A lot of people switch back to a dumb phone after they noticed this. So I think Microsoft Smartphone platform is really unique in combining the cellphone form factor and real PDA capabilities.

I'm with wally on this - I don't think I could ever get used to navigating the tiny screen of a Smartphone. I'm perfectly happy with my "Dumbphone."

Are all smartphones the same flip form factor? IIRC an Orange phone I saw was one piece. Anyhow, the Mio looks darn close to a Mpx200, so probably about the same size all around including keypad.

I totally agree the smartphone display is razor sharp. It blew me away when I first turned it on. But... I have prespeopia (sp) so I can't see the SP display without reading glasses. My arms aren't long enough

I *can* see and type on my W w/o glasses when I hold it at waist level. I tried with the SP and no go. Maybe if I had better sight I'd be inclined to favour the SP more.

Tak, honestly, if I could use the SP as well as I can the W I think I'd switch over. After all, it's smaller, has more features, (speakerphone/mp3/video 'n whatnot) and as you say in a pinch you can create short messages on it. My eyes won't get better so a larger screen (within reason) and a thumboard (I can use it one-handed as I have giant hands) are easier on me.

I will carry them both for a bit and see how I get on. I can see the value of just toting the SP for around town trips. It does have eveything feature wise I could need and it's tiny.

But I'll admit I've really grown fond of the W. My only minor complaint is I have to use an earbud with it. That's not so bad in the summer with light clothes but the cord got tangled a bit when I wore a hat and scarf.

edit: I forgot to ask. How is the choice for SP games? To drop my W I'd need to have a decent assortment of time wasters

Edited by wallythacker 2006-04-11 6:23 AM

Actually flip phones are rare in the world of SPs. The only models are the two Mio-s and the two Moto-s. All other SPs are straight, afaik. And the next Moto SP, the "Q", is also straight, but with thumbboard, sorta like Treo but much thinner and narrower. However that model is delayed yet again, so it might take a few more months. If it's ever released in BC with a reasonable price (even with contract) I would seriously consider it.

Hmm I never thought about presbyopia. Now that you mentioned it, I understand your difficulty. My parents (especially dad) once commented on my SP's large screen size, because most phones have much smaller screen sizes. All they read on their cellphones is the numbers they are dialing, and that happens to be in huge fonts on my SP. Also, like most flip phones, the keys are large compared to straight phones. I find reading SMS also much easier than on phones with smaller screens. But I'd imagine the Tungsten W is even better

I actually haven't played many games on the SP. I do have SPVMan always in my storage though. It's a Pacman clone that is very faithful to the original arcade release, and it's free. Another one to recommend is gnuboy SP, which is a Color Gameboy emulator. It works fine on my Mio, but with a problem with the menu button so I cannot pause or exit the software Not sure if it's fast enough with the Moto's CPU though. Mine has an Intel PXA262, but I think yours has a TI OMAP.

I badly want a Treo 700w or Cingular 8125, but I just purchased a w600i

haha, really? i always used my normal dumb phones with both of my hands... lol. once i realized i could use it with one hand but it was uncomfortable for me so i went back to two handed mode..

Tak, yes the W screen is hard to beat for clarity and size.

I find the OMAP is OK for Mp3s and a small video I played but I can't comment yet on gaming.

Once I've flashed my Moto with a sp2002 image any comparison I make between it and my W will be a little fairer, as the Moto WM5 is beta and buggy as I read.

I am *very* keen on giving the Moto a workout and on paper SPs do have a lot of features. Given the Moto has music and the W doesn't is quite an edge. Time will tell.

I have an MPx200 flashed with WM2003 on it (just look around on the net for a guide), and I have to say that of all my WinCE devices, it is the one I use the most, if only because I carry it with me nearly everywhere.

It serves as a great companion to my Izzi Pro, but actually handles multimedia much better. Not only does it have many of the most-used programs I have on my H/PC (TCPMP, AvantGo, Mobipocket, WMP), synchronization via WMP10 means I just pick it up from its cradle in the morning and I have audio and video podcasts to go. If I want to catch a TV show I recorded, it is easy to re-encode, sync and playback on the fly because its processor can handle it. Yes, the screen is small, but that is an acceptable sacrifice for the convenience.

My H/PC is still used for data entry because a full sized keyboard is much easier than T9 (although it can still be done!), a 640x480 screen is much better for viewing documents on that a 176x220 one, and my phone does not have any Pocket Office programs (apart from PTab - an Excel compatible spreadsheet I use as my log book). That said, most of the current WM5 smartphones have pin-sharp QVGA screens which would be an improvement.

Back to the original question: I could never go back to a "dumb" phone! I am already eyeing the HTC Star Trek as my next phone!

now you can see why i love my bsquare phone!

does everything your SP does and more and all that on a full VGA 4" screen.

I am as much a fan of convergence as anyone, but there are certain things which I look for in a phone which are essential. One of these is that, since I take it with me everywhere, it needs to be small enough to fit into a trouser pocket. On the other hand, for extended data entry it is much better to have a full-sized keyboard and a larger screen. Unfortunately, the requirements of "small" for phone and "large" for handheld are currently mutally exclusive, so I have 2 devices - and don't feel like I am a traitor to the H/PC cause by doing so!

I did consider the BSquare handheld but it was a little too big for me to carry around, and the keys too small to use for touch typing - falling between two stools as it were. I agree that the VGA screen is lovely though, but if I were to go down that route I think I would go for an HTC Universal instead - and that would be traitorous!

sure, valid points...

why i didn't choose a SP then.. my lifestyle is a little different, i often wear stuff without any pockets so i must have a handbag with me all the time, so why not the bsquare hehe. and the keyboard is much better than a plain phone numpad.
htc universal is nice (i tried it for 1 day) but too expensive to be just my phone-pda. if it could replace the hpc i'd buy it at the price, but it can't so i'll wait.

hey no it would not be traitorous. really, why would it be such a big problem if you had a ppc too (along with a hpc hehe). just don't forget it isn't natively vga unlike the bsquare. (you need to install the vga hack)

That's a little bit misleading. You don't need to install VGA hack. It only runs double-pixel for software that are not designed for VGA, meaning old software. The newer software that support VGA PPC are displayed with all pixels.

ZSX,
The Star Trek looks nice and has a lot of fandom already, but there's a huge problem: it uses MicroSD, and guess where it's located? Under the battery? Yes... and worse! It's under the SIM card which is under the battery! So you have to remove both to get to the memory card. That has got to be the stupidest design I've ever seen. I'd rather keep my Mio than to get the Star Trek

Yes the Moto Q uses MiniSD, which is only slightly better than MicroSD, but at least it's accessible from the side. I take my SD card out of the Mio SP all the time, mainly to transfer pictures I've taken, and sometimes transferring media files to it.

Another thing is that I want to have WiFi on the SP, even if I need to use an add-on. The idea is mainly for sync'ing AvantGo or do some quick 'net lookup at freespots (I'm cheap so I don't use GPRS). I don't know if Q will have built-in WiFi (prolly not) but I hope the MicroSD WiFi card will work on it (more likely... maybe 50% chance).

BTW here's the Q current webpage:
http://www.motorola.com/motoinfo/product/details/0,,113,00.html

Takwu,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The reason I have not upgraded my battered MPx200 till now is that it takes cheap and hot-swappable SD cards.

I have a 1GB card in mine which I previouly also used as a plug-n-play thumb drive (with a USB reader), and so the hot-swap-ability was really quite important.

However, as I now have a dedicated thumb drive, this is no longer required. So, although modern phones seem to be set up so you can't easily take the flash card out, this is becoming less and less of an issue for me. ActiveSync and the sync feature of WMP10 seem to cover most bases in terms of what files I need to shuttle back and forth between PC and phone.

As always there is inevitaby a toss up between size and functionality. The Q does look good, but it does't quite hit the sweet spot for me, although it may for others. For that size device I would expect at least a PPCPE OS (sacrilege!)

I'll admit the talk about SPs and the mpx200 have me interested, very much so.

My ISP is still crap so finding the SP2002 rom image is a moot point for now. When I do is there anything I need to know before I try to flash it into my Moto?

I'll admit the talk about SPs and the mpx200 have me interested, very much so.

My ISP is still crap so finding the SP2002 rom image is a moot point for now. When I do is there anything I need to know before I try to flash it into my Moto?

I'll admit the talk about SPs and the mpx200 have me interested, very much so.

My ISP is still crap so finding the SP2002 rom image is a moot point for now. When I do is there anything I need to know before I try to flash it into my Moto?

I'll admit the talk about SPs and the mpx200 have me interested, very much so.

My ISP is still crap so finding the SP2002 rom image is a moot point for now. When I do is there anything I need to know before I try to flash it into my Moto?

I'll admit the talk about SPs and the mpx200 have me interested, very much so.

My ISP is still crap so finding the SP2002 rom image is a moot point for now. When I do is there anything I need to know before I try to flash it into my Moto?

I'll admit the talk about SPs and the mpx200 have me interested, very much so.

My ISP is still crap so finding the SP2002 rom image is a moot point for now. When I do is there anything I need to know before I try to flash it into my Moto?

My MPx200 originally came with SP2002 installed - I haven't tried to flash the ROM to anything other than SP2003, and certainly not from WM5 to SP2002, so I'm not sure I'm much help. Your best bet would be on the Modaco forums where there is an entire forum devoted to the MPx200!

For what it's worth, my experience with flashing from SP2002 to SP2003 was a relatively painless experience, although I did worry about bricking the phone!

Just watch out for which ROM inage you have because there are non-English ones out there. Also, the process itself takes longer than you expect (40 minutes?) so you need to have a fully charged battery before you do it. When you reboot for the first time, be very patient because it takes a very long time (five minutes?) to reinitalise and get to the desktop.

The SP2003 ROM is great for me because I feel it runs more stably than SP2002, and there is also much more software available. You do sacrifice the ability to send MMSes, however, although there is a workaround for this (which I have not used), and I believe there are other quirks as well. SP2002 may be a better bet depending on how you use your phone.

not so misleading in my experience, i used a couple of vga ppc's and most of the software needs the hack.
the only ones i tried that didn't need it were opera 8.5 and the ts client for rdp sure i didn't try too much software only the ones i wanted to use. so maybe the situation has changed in the last few months though i doubt it.. but if it did, that's very good news.

Just an update.

Yep, I'm still willing to give my Moto a fair shot so I found the 2002 and 2003 images. I tried to flash in the 2002 image with no luck. I thought I'd bricked the Moto but a hard reset/pull battery solved things.

I'm off to Modaco to get some insight on why flashing backwards is a tough thing to do. Hopefully someone there has been down that road.

In the meantime, I find the Moto is always at my side for a quick card game

Why not try the 2003? 2002 is CE3, 2003 is CE4.2, so it should be somewhat faster. It sure is for XScale processors. I never had a TI OMAP tho.

Well, experience has taught me to go back as far as possible and work forward, hence the shot at flashing 2002.

I've googled till my eyes are square I have all the images and tools I need (I think). I couldn't flash 2002 in, I got an error message with no resolution.

So when I feel like bricking my Moto I'll give 2003SE a shot. Overall, it looks the most appealing. I don't like the idea of WM5 using the SD card as an extension to the OS. I'd like to swap cards at will hence 2003.

Tak, what OS is on your SP? 2003? BTW, I do see the value of a tiny CE machine with a phone. If this flashing stuff works my W may just become my backup phone even though I love it dearly. But for travelling light with music the Moto sure is tiny.

Mine is 2003

I've never actually seen a 2002 SP. The Mio 8380, which is the predecessor of my Mio 8390, is 2002, but otherwise has similar specs inside (looks quite different tho). Users who have used both phones have reported an improvement in speed and stability in the 8390.

I'm not sure about the speed increase in the MPx200 2003 upgrade, but IIRC users did find it more stable as well.

I'm having no luck reverting my mxp200 back to 2003se. I need to read and ask some more ad Modaco. I keep getting a "Bad news, ROM update failed. irritating.