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Editorial: Are you a prisoner of the unlock code?

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vjurkas Page Icon Posted 2005-04-13 1:42 PM
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Uncle Ben - 2005-04-13 3:31 PM

That being said, there are registration schemes that I truly dislike - Inesoft's Cash Organizer, for one; and SoftMaker, to a lesser extent, where one must obtain a new customer ID with every change of email address. But I still feel that developers have every right to protect their intellectual assets the way they see fit; and we, as consumers of their products, have every right to buy or decline their products if we don't like their licensing agreement and registration process.
That my 2 cents' ... for whatever it's worth.


If you dislike SoftMaker's registration scheme - you must try ArtSKey (Russian software)! The user must obtain a new ID every time he/she reinstals the SAME software on the SAME machine with the SAME user ID, SAME e-mail address.... Would you belive that?

I (rationally) understand what is behind. Former Soviet Union is a real paradise for piracy. It is LEGAL (yes, no mistake) to sell pirate copies of software, music or films. But, the pirate must always issue an invoice (Guess why! Taxes)! I am not telling stories, I have seen it personally.

I definitely disagree with such schemes but, on the other hand, just read the forum. People are asking for free software not for working one! It is possible that more software would be sold if it were just cheaper. But - hard to say. At least, it would be fair, if such company closes down that they give away their SW for free.
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vjurkas Page Icon Posted 2005-04-13 2:01 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-04-13 5:45 PM

I would like to VERY strongly distance myself from your saying "The pirate is the entire nation of communist China", I think it is an egregious statement and you are out of line to say it. Lets us not be obtuse to where more cyber-piracy originates from in the first place - the West. So to say one society is immoral for burning it to a CD - which in another part of the country they're probably making the real things anyway - and to pretend that ours is not immoral for pirating from the employers or studios who paid for it in the first place is very misguided.
IMO.


I have a feeling (well, I might be wrong) that there is another dimension. I am also coming from a former communist country. I have a feeling that companies like MS even encourage piracy in first stages of transition. It is a drug dealer model: once you are phisically dependent on it... yes, pay for it! And keep paying more and more And come praying for more....
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Uncle Ben Page Icon Posted 2005-04-13 2:19 PM
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Reply to VJURKAS:

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If you dislike SoftMaker's registration scheme - you must try ArtSKey (Russian software)! The user must obtain a new ID every time he/she reinstals the SAME software on the SAME machine with the SAME user ID, SAME e-mail address.... Would you belive that? ENDQUOTE

I know, I use ArtSKey too - pathetic isn't it! I've been caught a few times when I was using the Jornada 720 - which I found was very unstable. Haven't had to go to them since I've had my 900. I did have to hard reset the unit once or twice, but was able to recover all my applications and data from a recent backup. But it is a very good example indeed. Let's see - I bought that software in May 2003 for USD 30. So if these folks went belly up and I had to reinstall the software on a new device, I would indeed be up creek without a paddle. But I needed the software, so I got it any way ... knowing that for $30, it was worth the risk. Do I like it - you bet I don't, but ...

Cheers!
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Hurricane John Page Icon Posted 2005-04-13 2:35 PM
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Uncle ben

Thanks for bringing the conversation back into perspective ---

I was beginning to wonder what software developer's registration policy had to do with:

American Nationalism
Communist China and Linux
Russian Drug Dealers
European Contempt

The only thing that wasn't mentioned is - Paris Hilton
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-04-13 2:39 PM
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vjurkas, that is an intersting stance.
Do you have any more information or proof you can provide us on that, or is just just born on a personal level from your experiences?

Just think what it would mean to actually be able to prove something like that... my, my.
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vjurkas Page Icon Posted 2005-04-13 2:47 PM
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Uncle Ben - 2005-04-13 8:19 PM

example indeed. Let's see - I bought that software in May 2003 for USD 30. So if these folks went belly up and I had to reinstall the software on a new device, I would indeed


In such case I will tell you for a workaround. There is at least one.
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vjurkas Page Icon Posted 2005-04-13 3:01 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-04-13 8:39 PM

vjurkas, that is an intersting stance.
Do you have any more information or proof you can provide us on that, or is just just born on a personal level from your experiences?

Just think what it would mean to actually be able to prove something like that... my, my.


I do not know what you have in mind. Russian situation? Or, drug dealer model? For the second I have no proof. Just feeling. I think that there are many ways (at least for a company like Microsoft) to prevent that. MS plays a big role in the US economy. I think that for a giant like MS it would not be that difficult to press on e.g. Russian government (through the US administration, of course). But why would they do it? Better wait for couple of years more and they'll get back much more. I am not an expert but I am quite sure (the price was signifficantly higher) that in Russia Russian music is sold on original media! No piracy for domestic intelectual property! So? What is the most logical conslusion? In couple of years, local resellers and government will start fighting against piracy because they will be losing money if they don't do so. And this is the moment Microsoft is waiting for. They are Microsofties forever....
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bruisedquasar Page Icon Posted 2005-04-14 11:22 AM
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That communist China is a pirate nation is common knowledge and has been for years. I'll bet you can find reports of Chinese piracy on the Net. Every President since Nixon, including Bill Clinton, has had long discussions with the Chinese government about piracy. By the way, Chinese piracy is not limited to copyright or patents. The government is also involved in old fashioned piracy. Chinese naval ships regularly illegally seize ships of small countries like Thailand that are clearly outside Chinese territorial waters, take the cargo (a favorite is to seize shipments of Toyota vehicles) & release the crew and ship in a few weeks with a "warning".

Several small emerging Pacific Rim nations have long complained to the United Nations and other world bodies about Chinese piracy. Search the Bangkok Post (a major Pacific Rim English Language newspaper) for "chinese piracy". If you can read any French search Le Monde newspaper for "chinese piracy." If you can read any German, search "Bund" for "chinese piracy". Search world class (left wing) British "The Economist" for articles on "chinese piracy."

There was absolutely nothing political or nationalist about my post and more careful reading of it produces a different understanding than the POLITICAL attacks made about the post. By the way, I AM ASIAN but I will not think a certain way dictated to me by any group of ideological non-Asians. As I mentioned in my post, I have spent considerable time in Thailand, S. Korea, Hongkong, Singapore and I saw first hand the open sale of pirated USA copyright software, music CDs and movie DVDs & VHS & books. In fact, I have a few for "evidence" to show my liberal friends. Furthermore, we host Asian foreign students every year and I "interview" them about what is going on in their country. My Japanese student (2004) told me that one still cannot buy pirated materials in Japan. My Thai student (2004) offered to bring me any DVDs, CDs, software I want. I tell my students to never try to bring these items here as they most probably will be caught. Like it or not, it is a fact that it is significantly easier to get a box cutter past USA customs than a pirated CD, DVD, VHS or Book. How is saying that off topic or nationalist?

Our last Thai student forgot and brought a kids DVD from Thailand for my grandson. It was a CHINESE made pirated copy of a Japanese animated toon. She is very fortunate she was not caught with it. It was a Japanese copyrighted item so customs missed it. (The writing was in Japanese and Thai).

Before you insult and attack someone, it seems to me that Aristotle's teaching is in order. By the way, I attacked no one, I never make a post personal and I never have done so, so I resent what was done to me in this thread, especially since not one attack was fair. "Before you criticise, first be sure you understand" --Aristotle, "The Logic"

I presented facts that have been published in every major magazine and national newspaper from New York Times to Washington Post, from Time to Vanity Fair. And I saw with my eyes what I posted. Have any of you been to any of these countries? I was attacked with assumption and conjecture, theory and ideology.

I will continue this line no more. I felt I am due a single response to what I see as a very odd reaction to the common knowledge I posted into this thread. Sorry, but the truth is, the most rediculous attack on me was the one that said my post did not address the issue. We really do need to separate our personal impression and reaction from what is actually said. To do otherwise is to fall prey to a current common American cultural disease, social narcissism.

As for nationalism, it was not brought up by me. I am NOT AMERICAN for one thing. And it was brought up by two people: The one who accused me of it in an attack response and by another attack response from a person who blanket accused USA firms of misdeeds and blanket denied any misdeeds from Communist China. My advice is that we need to distinguish between Chinese people and the Chinese elite dictators who rule China. I know many Chinese and all of them are fine people whom I will take as neighbors any day but the people who rule China are enemies of the Chinese and of a good part of the world. Not that it is relevant to rational people but my parents are Chinese and Japanese and English is a foreign language to me. Had my post been read through before I was attacked none of you would have assumed I am some kind of spread eagle patriot American, which (by the way) I do not see as a problem or a joke. I find it strange that there are Americans who attack other Americans for being patriotic. Travel the world some and you will find patriotism is normal, not odd.

Before you attack someone, should a person first make sure he knows the facts?

...Of course...this is all merely my humble opinion...

--Much Bruised
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bruisedquasar Page Icon Posted 2005-04-14 12:03 PM
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vjurkas - 2005-04-13 3:01 PM

I do not know what you have in mind. Russian situation? Or, drug dealer model? For the second I have no proof. Just feeling. I think that there are many ways (at least for a company like Microsoft) to prevent that. MS plays a big role in the US economy. I think that for a giant like MS it would not be that difficult to press on e.g. Russian government (through the US administration, of course). But why would they do it? Better wait for couple of years more and they'll get back much more. I am not an expert but I am quite sure (the price was signifficantly higher) that in Russia Russian music is sold on original media! No piracy for domestic intelectual property! So? What is the most logical conslusion? In couple of years, local resellers and government will start fighting against piracy because they will be losing money if they don't do so. And this is the moment Microsoft is waiting for. They are Microsofties forever....


First, foreigners like us must understand how effective Microsoft has been at spending billions over the years on scientific propaganda (excuse me, in the USA madison avenue calls it "marketing and advertising" I assume in your country as in mine, people do not get emotional about a thing, a product or a brand name. In USA, you cannot criticise Microsoft without eliciting several highly emotional responses. Fortunately, there are also many Americans who see Microsoft and its products for what they are. See any Open Source site (GNU.ORG or major Linux site) or [kmfms.com --detailed history of Microsoft tactics]

There is evidence in support of your suspicions. I am sure you are aware that Bill Gates and top members of the Microsoft cartel have been engaged in heavy talks with the new EU court and EU "government" trying to convince them to grant patents to software. The Gates led cartel has actually managed to get an EU written bill now being considered for passage that allows Microsoft to get patents. You may also be aware that last year the US government backed off the EU from carrying out its heavy fines and injunctions against Microsoft for illegal collusion, price fixing and other monopolistic practices. The Bush justice department "instructed" the EU that the parties that filed action against Microsoft filed actions against MS in the USA and it has already been taken care of. The EU backed off, eventhough their ruling was based on MS activity in EU states, not on activity in the USA.

Last month it was reported in several publications that Gates told an Asian country, that was so foolish as to grant MS a patent for Windows, that the government illegally erased Win XP from several PCs and installed Linux. He forced the government to reinstall Win XP. If the EU grants Gates a patent for Windows, the USA must comply because of the International Patent Treaty, which the USA wrote. All signatories must recognize other signatorie's patents. A patent on Windows would mean only MS Operating Systems can be used on Desktop PCs. This is why copyright and not patents are granted to software in USA and in Europe.

In America, Constitutionally, the people are the government. As such, the people cannot allow MS to get patents on software. You cannot allow patents on ideas. It will result in absolute monopoly rights. The rumor is Intel, Gateway and Dell will patent all the hardware they can from the mouse to PC hard drives and Windows will patent software from the taskbar to desktop and notebook operating systems.

The bill pending in the EU system grants Microsoft a patent on the desktop and notebook Operating System. It is my opinion, the bill will not pass, that Gates and cartel will fail. Many Europeans are not happy with EU government and court anyway. They will not tolerate giving MS a patent on Operating Systems.

We must also stop these increasingly anti-consumer software copy protections. When Commodore Computers were common place, people got governments to back off aggressive software publishers' copy protection schemes that damaged floppy drives by knocking them out of alignment. Well, not being able to use software you paid for because of an- in effect- anti-consumer copy right protection scheme cannot be tolerated.

Read the fine print on your Win XP "license agreement". It says XP is leased to you, that you do not own it. I say vote with our feet. Windows is not the only or even the best OS game in town.

...Of course...this is all merely my humble opinion

--Bruised
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Hurricane John Page Icon Posted 2005-04-14 12:46 PM
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When I brought up this subject in the editorial, I did not envision the discussion heading down this road.

I'm starting to feel like I should apologize to one and all for even bringing up the subject.

Thanks for all of your opinons on this matter - it's been interesting to say the least.

Peace
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vjurkas Page Icon Posted 2005-04-14 12:49 PM
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I think that we really slipped away from the topic (including myself). The original question was what we think about more or less annoying protections against potential piracy. Some of them are so ingenious that even protect the legal user (license holder) from using the software

I am afraid that there is no simple answer. Is there someone who wrote a piece of SW for HPC and is selling it? It would be interesting to read from him. What was the strategy? Low price? Long or short evaluation period? The way of payment? What worked the best?

This could be an answer. Maybe by lowering the prices you attract more buyers... Or maybe the oposite; the number of people who are willing to buy the software is constant - there is just a small number (percentage) of buyers who say: "Well, if it is 10 only,it would be stupid not to take the chance..." I don't know. Both seem equally probable to me

One thing is sure: if all the people were like Bruised, the SW and music pirates would represent a huge social problem of the world
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bruisedquasar Page Icon Posted 2005-04-14 7:52 PM
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vjurkas - 2005-04-14 12:49 PM

I think that we really slipped away from the topic (including myself). The original question was what we think about more or less annoying protections against potential piracy. Some of them are so ingenious that even protect the legal user (license holder) from using the software One thing is sure: if all the people were like Bruised, the SW and music pirates would represent a huge social problem of the world


First, my post was right on topic. It was not about international copyright or patent piracy and I did not indicate I think it is a huge social problem. My post expressed the view that to intelligently analyze US software anti-piracy methods we must view the issue in context, not in the narrow out of content way giant firms like Microsoft and Music giants want us to do.

If you want to know, it is my conclusion that the huge problem facing the American people is the corruption of their government, of both Republican and Democratic National Parties and its elected members, and the huge problem facing the world is that this corrupt government has the technological military power to destroy the world. The people of the world do need to be very concerned.

Not to consider proper context is like discussing the best utomobile brakes without including size and weight of the autos. Why do firms like MS claim they must increasingly strong arm their software to the growing inconvenience of consumers? Piracy. Why do we need to be concerned about piracy? Only one reason: software (and music) will not be made available to us if publishers and authors cannot make a reasonable profit. I point out that they in fact make a huge profit and the only really significant piracy is done by certain countries, China being the largest perpetrator. Yet, firms and the representative government of the USA focus on incriminating kids and schemes that are unfair to Americans.

This is not being political or out of focus. It is right on focus and non-political. It is not being nationalist. I am not American. It is analysis and conclusion based on logic and fact. I am specific, factual, logical and non-personal but get personally attacked for positions I did not take. I point this out and I get dismissed as being off topic. Opinion that is logical, polite, factual deserves to be met with the same, not with Ad Hominem attacks, which are illogical and according to the Great Nietzsche "betrayer of poverty of argument."

More evidence for my opinion that we need to fight outrageous software tactics led by Microsoft: A story filed by Elle Cyabyab of Ziff Davis publishing (4/11/05) reports that Microsoft finally agreed to pay Gateway computer 150 million dollars for antitrust violation in MS illegally penalizing Gateway for refusing the MS order to stop bundling Netscape Navigator with new PCs. US Justice Department Finding of Fact report concluded in 2000 that MS did unlawfully hike the price of MS products sold to Gateway for bundling the customer prefered Navigator instead of MS Internet Explorer.

Several firms have sued Microsoft for bundling free programs with Windows to destroy superior products. They always lose because MS has a 100 attorney legal department that no 5 to 30 million dollar a year software firm can afford to win a suit against.

Consumers fought and won a fight against third party Commodore Computer Software publishers' draconian copy protection schemes. We need to fight current inexcusable commercial software copy protection schemes.

My point again is that the protection schemes are unneccessary. Firms like Microsoft consistently show record breaking yearly profit increases, 30 to 40% a year, which is unheard of in the history of business. I know. I own Microsoft stock. My returns over the past 12 years have been insane in my opinion.

Making it simple: What is the precise problem software giants want us to allow them to solve with increasingly 'consumer be damned' copy protection schemes?

...Of course...for me...all I post is merely my humble opinion...

--Bruised
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Uncle Ben Page Icon Posted 2005-04-15 4:03 PM
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Hurricane John - 2005-04-13 2:35 PM

Uncle ben

Thanks for bringing the conversation back into perspective ---

I was beginning to wonder what software developer's registration policy had to do with:

American Nationalism
Communist China and Linux
Russian Drug Dealers
European Contempt

The only thing that wasn't mentioned is - Paris Hilton


Hi there WindyStormyJohn! Well, the only reason why Paris wasn't brought up is that her unlock code has been in the public domain for quite some time. I wonder if she has a PDA and a soft-reset button!

All I can say, is that I'm glad that the balance of this discussion, if there was one, was PMed out or died out. It's truly amazing how a simple, honest question about software unlock codes and licensing practices can degerate into a war of words. One can only hope that people will use good judgment and discernment, and not use this platform to launch vicious and virulent attacks on any groups or nations.

Personally, I don't judge anyone - all I can say is this: if I had to pirate software and music in order to feed my children at the end of the day, I'd do it in a heartbeat! That being said, I still firmly believe that software developers have every right to protect their intellectual assets.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-04-15 5:01 PM
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OK, as much as I would like to come back here, once again in the interest of imparitality it isn't appropreate for me to do so.

I do not class any of the posts here as attacks, mearly as debate which one tries to draw back on topic. Any member which feels otherwise is welcome to PM one of the other Administrators with their concerns, but please keep it off-forum.

Now back to the programming...
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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-04-15 5:37 PM
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so, again back ontopic ... I dun find myself a prisoner of the unlock code.

Frankly, there were more than a few times when I chanced upon some old software (or game ... like the Nintendo Game&Watch from the 70s) and I was so elated that I would be able to "relive" those fondly missed memories. But often than not, too much have changed, both the computing industry and myself, that when I bring up the oldware, the magic is not there anymore. Of cos there are exceptions like ... karateka!

My point is that even if software expires by design 10 yrs down the road, I dun think I would feel a prisoner of it. And I won't hold the developer for it - even if they do not release it as freeware. This is because I believe that the usefulness of that software would have found its equivalent in a future incarnation, maybe by the same company or by others. In some cases, the whole paradigm changed. Compare BBS vs internet. At least for me (I know there may be hardcore BBS sysops here who sw**r by BBS!), even if BBSes in its original form can be setup and be available, I would choose to go the www way anyday. Sure, the first few minutes would be teary eye ... then when the reality sets in (for me), I would prob find myself using whatever I was currently using, be it the web or otherwise.

Whatever developers do, state it upfront. If the software expires in 10yrs, say so. 5 yrs, 2, 1 ... say so and let the user deliberate over it and decide to buy or not. If that is done, I feel it is at least open play (though fairness is debatable). And to me, that is good enough. If I find it unfair that a piece of software expires in 10 yrs, then I can always find an alternative. Whether or not there is an alternative itself, is another thread altogether.

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