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WM2003 on 900c, or WM2003's ActiveSync?

neomagick Page Icon Posted 2008-06-07 1:47 PM
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This was pulled from the Custom Roms thread, but it tied into a concept i was already mulling over - since that thread was 83 pages anyway, i'm just going to start a new one.

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another possibility: just bin the beta package and simply port the 900c to WM2003SE, this is certainly quite possible but not as an installable CAB like the TFGBD package is.


Holy crap, you're kidding. That would be AWESOME.

We're talking the full WM2003 OS and apps, not just a shell or skin or something?

I posted another message which C:Amie shot down pretty quickly, about building what he termed to be a gateway app that would translate network signaling (specifically the ports that Activesync 3.x used for network syncing) to a com port on the host pc, so that wireless syncing could be forced in ActiveSync 4+, because it would think it was just a serial connection, much like Bluetooth.

While I still think it's possible, once he described the reasoning behind that not working , I got to thinking. My main goal is being able to sync my email, calendar, and contacts, over WiFi, against my Exchange server. Everything since PocketPC 2002 does that natively. Is it not possible to simply pull the apps (Mail, Calendar, and Activesync) out of the more recent PPC or WM OS and install them into CE.Net or HPC 2000? We make ARM apps run on MIPS cpus and vice versa through DLL hacking and tweaking, and the HPC 2000 office suite is in Cmonex's rom, so I'm curious how this would work, and what would be involved.

Cmonex, I'd love your thoughts on this.

Cheers.
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2008-06-07 4:43 PM
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Hmmm, am I missing something? I thought CE.NET 4.2 was based on WM2003...
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neomagick Page Icon Posted 2008-06-07 4:59 PM
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Hey Rich -

I don't know much about the progression, other than the CE line was killed off around the time PPC started permeating the marketplace. But if that's the case, all the more reason this concept should be pretty straight forward then, right? Couldn't the ActiveSync/Calendar/Mail/Contacts/Notes apps just be ported over?

Cheers.

Update: This Tells me you're right, Rich. Thanks for pointing this out!

Edited by neomagick 2008-06-07 5:13 PM
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CE Geek Page Icon Posted 2008-06-07 7:34 PM
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Rich Hawley - 2008-06-07 1:43 PM

Hmmm, am I missing something? I thought CE.NET 4.2 was based on WM2003...


It's the other way around, Rich.
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neomagick Page Icon Posted 2008-06-07 8:08 PM
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Ha. I missed that too.

Either way, my reply still stands - shouldn't that make such an endeavour easier?

Edited by neomagick 2008-06-07 8:10 PM
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2008-06-08 12:54 PM
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Couldn't the ActiveSync/Calendar/Mail/Contacts/Notes apps just be ported over?


no, they require at least the WM2003 shell to be installed.


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neomagick - 2008-06-08 2:08 AM

Either way, my reply still stands - shouldn't that make such an endeavour easier?


it makes it not "easier". it makes it just possible. if it was a different kernel version you would first need the BSP to recompile 900c kernel.
so WM5 is not possible without that first i.e. upgrade 900c kernel to CE 5.0.
what's a BSP? it is something we users don't have. for more info, please google a bit.


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neomagick - 2008-06-07 7:47 PM

We're talking the full WM2003 OS and apps, not just a shell or skin or something?


full OS & apps.

the shell is already done as an installable package but it is in quite a beta state.

the full OS won't be installable CAB, must be flashed.

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Is it not possible to simply pull the apps (Mail, Calendar, and Activesync) out of the more recent PPC or WM OS and install them into CE.Net or HPC 2000? We make ARM apps run on MIPS cpus and vice versa through DLL hacking and tweaking, and the HPC 2000 office suite is in Cmonex's rom, so I'm curious how this would work, and what would be involved.



no, we don't make ARM apps run on MIPS, that's two different CPU's, two different architectures. however isotherm wrote an ARM to MIPS converter, of course alpha state, he only tried a helloworld app with it but that worked.
I have no idea where that project stands or if he ever plans to do more with it. if not, I'd love to take that further one day just for the challenge
in any case, it won't work by just taking some DLLs

getting the hpc2000 office out of rom suite required this work:
http://hpcmonex.net/izemize/docs/reloctutpack.zip

and then, there is the issue of program compatibility; for example the excel app won't work on some cenet 4.2 devices without updating coredll.dll which requires a rom flash.
neither excel nor word works on cenet 4.1 out of the box and I never took the pain to find out why.

so at the end of the day it might just be easier to make a WM2003 OS with the 900c drivers. the cenet 4.2 kernel compiled for 900c will have to be kept but that's compatible. (well in theory; but I'm sure in practice too)


in any case, I won't have my PC or unlimited internet access from tomorrow for about a week. just limited HSDPA. so won't work much on this on my laptop. I'll instead work further on the new rom editor program.


P.S.: I just noticed you're in Redmond... could you please steal WM6 platform builder and OAK tools and latest AKU's from microsoft, ha!
of course WM2003SE platform builder too, if you can.

Edited by cmonex 2008-06-08 1:02 PM
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neomagick Page Icon Posted 2008-06-08 2:01 PM
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I guess I'm a little confused by your responses. Please let me know if I'm on or off track here...


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cmonex - 2008-06-08 9:54 AM
full OS & apps.

the shell is already done as an installable package but it is in quite a beta state.

the full OS won't be installable CAB, must be flashed.


Ok, this much makes sense.


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cmonex - 2008-06-08 9:54 AM

it makes it not "easier". it makes it just possible. if it was a different kernel version you would first need the BSP to recompile 900c kernel.
so WM5 is not possible without that first i.e. upgrade 900c kernel to CE 5.0.
what's a BSP? it is something we users don't have. for more info, please google a bit.



So recompiling the 900c kernel to upgrade it to CE 5 req's the BSP - Wiki & Msft tell me this is the Board Support Package, a propriety set of code that loads a basic os/drivers on the device. I don't fully understand it or its use, but that's ok - I do understand that's probably something NEC is holding very close to their chest, and we won't find it on Tucows. If you feel like explaining more, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I get that you need it, and we don't have it.



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cmonex - 2008-06-08 9:54 AM
no, we don't make ARM apps run on MIPS, that's two different CPU's, two different architectures. however isotherm wrote an ARM to MIPS converter, of course alpha state, he only tried a helloworld app with it but that worked.
I have no idea where that project stands or if he ever plans to do more with it. if not, I'd love to take that further one day just for the challenge
in any case, it won't work by just taking some DLLs

getting the hpc2000 office out of rom suite required this work:
http://hpcmonex.net/izemize/docs/reloctutpack.zip

and then, there is the issue of program compatibility; for example the excel app won't work on some cenet 4.2 devices without updating coredll.dll which requires a rom flash.
neither excel nor word works on cenet 4.1 out of the box and I never took the pain to find out why.


I could swear that there were apps that you sent to me or posted up with instructions to add a different Aygshell or core2.dll because they were originally ARM and running on MIPS or vice versa. Am I just smoking the crack? Or did I not understand right? (Please correct me if not)



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cmonex - 2008-06-08 9:54 AM
so at the end of the day it might just be easier to make a WM2003 OS with the 900c drivers. the cenet 4.2 kernel compiled for 900c will have to be kept but that's compatible. (well in theory; but I'm sure in practice too)


Rock on. Now we're talking. So what I'm hearing is it's possible to make a WM2003 OS, using the CE.net 4.2 kernel, because we don't have the BSP to recompile CE 5 with. But that WM2003 OS will run the WM2003 apps, such as Activesync w/ Exchange, and whatever else we can throw at it...? Am I understanding right?


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cmonex - 2008-06-08 9:54 AM
in any case, I won't have my PC or unlimited internet access from tomorrow for about a week. just limited HSDPA. so won't work much on this on my laptop. I'll instead work further on the new rom editor program.


Well, first, I know full well your skills are in high demand around this community, and I hope that my excitement for this didn't come across as "START WORK ON THIS NOW!" - I have no intention of giving orders, let alone telling you what projects to work on at any given time. Perhaps most importantly, nor do I think you'd listen to me, were I to take such liberties. In any case, I know this isn't your job on the boards, and I know I'm not your boss, so if I came across in any manner as such, please accept my apologies.

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cmonex - 2008-06-08 9:54 AM
P.S.: I just noticed you're in Redmond... could you please steal WM6 platform builder and OAK tools and latest AKU's from microsoft, ha!
of course WM2003SE platform builder too, if you can.


Check your pms.

Cheers -
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2008-06-08 2:25 PM
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neomagick - 2008-06-08 8:01 PM
So recompiling the 900c kernel to upgrade it to CE 5 req's the BSP - Wiki & Msft tell me this is the Board Support Package, a propriety set of code that loads a basic os/drivers on the device. I don't fully understand it or its use, but that's ok - I do understand that's probably something NEC is holding very close to their chest, and we won't find it on Tucows. If you feel like explaining more, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I get that you need it, and we don't have it.


it is code for device specific HAL and drivers NEC (well, bsquare really) wrote.


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I could swear that there were apps that you sent to me or posted up with instructions to add a different Aygshell or core2.dll because they were originally ARM and running on MIPS or vice versa. Am I just smoking the crack? Or did I not understand right? (Please correct me if not)


you remember incorrectly. dlls can only be used on the CPU it was compiled for.


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Rock on. Now we're talking. So what I'm hearing is it's possible to make a WM2003 OS, using the CE.net 4.2 kernel, because we don't have the BSP to recompile CE 5 with. But that WM2003 OS will run the WM2003 apps, such as Activesync w/ Exchange, and whatever else we can throw at it...? Am I understanding right?


that's right.


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if I came across in any manner as such, please accept my apologies.


not at all, this note was to anyone who was following the thread or the custom rom thread


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Check your pms.


that was a joke, you know. this is confidential MS tools, only OEMs who develop WM devices have it other than microsoft.
though, full CE 5.0 platform builder can be obtained from MSDN. (I only have eval )
btw, use email, I don't reply to PM's. my email is contactchan at freemail.hu

Edited by cmonex 2008-06-08 2:25 PM
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TFGBD Page Icon Posted 2009-01-07 5:08 AM
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neomagick - 2008-06-07 1:47 PM

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another possibility: just bin the beta package and simply port the 900c to WM2003SE, this is certainly quite possible but not as an installable CAB like the TFGBD package is.


Holy crap, you're kidding. That would be AWESOME.

We're talking the full WM2003 OS and apps, not just a shell or skin or something?

...

While I still think it's possible, once he described the reasoning behind that not working , I got to thinking. My main goal is being able to sync my email, calendar, and contacts, over WiFi, against my Exchange server. Everything since PocketPC 2002 does that natively. Is it not possible to simply pull the apps (Mail, Calendar, and Activesync) out of the more recent PPC or WM OS and install them into CE.Net or HPC 2000? We make ARM apps run on MIPS cpus and vice versa through DLL hacking and tweaking, and the HPC 2000 office suite is in Cmonex's rom, so I'm curious how this would work, and what would be involved.

Cmonex, I'd love your thoughts on this.

Cheers.



A WM2003 and 2003 SE ROM for the 900c was my plan from the beginning but I got a little distracted with life. Sorry.

I was testing things completely in RAM/flash first and that is kind of the whole reason that package I made exists. I personally think it's cooler to run the entire thing outside of ROM since some devices are impossible to reflash but that's just me. Realize, it's not "just a shell". Where the OS components are loaded from has no bearing on how functional it will be. In theory, it should be as functional in ROM as it is in flash with my current package. I omitted most of the other apps from that package on purpose. It was really only meant for a few people to test and never intended to be used by anyone but myself and maybe one other person who was really curious.

With that said, I'm not sure either way whether the Pocket PC shell is a requirement to use the P/PC version of repllog. I actually planned to play with this months ago but never got around to it. If I have any success, I'll be sure to make a cab that simply installs that version of device side Activesync. However, if all you wanted to do was sync PIMS over wifi, you shouldn't need a Pocket PC for that. I don't use PIMs but it was my understanding that wifi sync always worked with H/PCs and custom CE devices until MS removed wifi support in Activesync 4.x. Are you sure installing Activesync 3.8 doesn't just let you do wifi sync? Even a WM2003 SE upgraded 900c will not be be able to sync over wifi if you use an older Activesync... Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Also, I'm still undecided on how I should implement it. Would you prefer just a staight Pocket PC ROM for the 900c or would some bastardized lovechild of Pocket PC and CE .net be preferred? The Explorer shell will run in a mostly WM2003 configuration but it's not exactly what I'd call stable or pretty. But it still works better than on an actual Pocket PC since I still use the 900c's coredll. The file open/save dialogs in plain CE are also superior to the crappy Pocket PC ones.

There is also the issue of whether to use 2003 SE or original 2003 components. SE is obviously newer and more well supported but that's not my main concern. SE's GWES will scroll any window that is off the screen. This makes many hardcoded QVGA applications usable without tricks like NYDITOT or Winwatch. At the same time, it breaks the menubars of "legacy" H/PC apps. Original 2003 has no menubar issues but lacks the GWES scrolling so things like winwatch are still needed.

If the explorer shell is modifed, The 2003 ayshell.dll will also work but it annoys me since it always gets covered by the taskbar and has no visible OK/close buttons. It also needs commctrl to be replaced and the GUI ends up looking like some stange combination of the two platforms. I personally don't like it as my aygshell when explorer is the primary shell.

Compared to it, Cmonex's hacked CE 4.2 aysghell is fairly decent itself. It's biggest issues are with apps that expect to get menu names from aygshell itself. On 4.2, you may have noticed how many apps that have a "New" button on their menubar will display a tiny, barely visible button without text instead of the expected "New" button. DeveloperOne AgendaFusion is a good example of this. This also happens with "Tools". I guess apps often expect to load this text from a resource in aygshell and aren't able to find it in the 4.2 build.


One other cool idea I had was on the fly shell switching. You should be able to switch between the Pocket PC shell and Explorer without even rebooting, though a reboot to switch gwes/commctrl/aygshell might be best. Including a simple ROM app that switches between the different shells and reboots should result in the look and feel of running two OSes side by side.

I suppose I can just do a ROM for each of the three configrations.

What does the community think?

Edited by TFGBD 2009-01-07 5:12 AM
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mr-mac Page Icon Posted 2009-01-07 5:47 AM
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TFGBD

I suppose I can just do a ROM for each of the three configrations.

What does the community think?


TFGBD,

I would also be intrested in trying to do somthing similar with smartbook once I have done custom rom (reminds me I need to try and catch cmonex when she has some time spare to help me through next stage, compressing all files from current rom and the new apps.

I guess it would be quite possible to piggyback onto the 900c project as all the WM files required should be the same for both devices.

Wonder if we could make WM2003's phone/comms software support the GPRS module?

Will keep an eye on this project anyway.

John
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2009-01-08 1:37 AM
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yeah, TFGBD, you need to get back to this.

it will work much better in ROM due to the default coredll being pocketpc one then. I guess explorer could still be edited to call a cenet coredll or whatever. we need to play lots I can see already.

btw, I have some ideas as to how to use 2003SE and still have menubars.
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TFGBD Page Icon Posted 2014-09-21 11:11 PM
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Uhg, I'm sorry I disappeared and never finished this. :/
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