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Accepting the inevitable; John Ottini on the changing attitudes of developers

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takwu Page Icon Posted 2005-06-17 6:51 AM
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If your software does not work as advertised, e.g. if it isn't compatible with your hardware but is claimed to be, then you can return it I think.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-06-17 7:19 AM
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In the case of Windows if you do not accept the eula, you can return it; it says so on the EULA.

Retailers do not realiese / act dumb on their obligation there, but MS will refund you if they do.
Having said that there was a case about two years ago now, where a woman in New York state successfully sued Microsoft because she had to break seal the software to get to the EULA to approve the EULA (having already broken the seal). Her retailer refused to deal with it after that.

Ever since that; the following has been available:
http://www.microsoft.com/legal/useterms/
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ArchiMark Page Icon Posted 2005-06-21 11:19 AM
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John,

I'm not a Linux expert, but what I've found after getting in to it the past 2 years is that it really opens up a whole new world of options that can help in situations like we're dealing with regarding HPC's.....

If you're already familiar with Linux, then my apologies in advance for the following....

Given that Linux is open source, then it's very possible, assuming interest in the specific category (like HPC's) for people to get a version of Linux running on that device. It's at that point, then the doors open wide with opportunities and one is freed from the constraints of the whims of Microsoft, HP, etc who decide to EOL something and leave users hanging..

Linux is constantly being upgraded and refined by a worldwide network of interested developers. That often brings a lot of good apps, feature enhancements, etc to everyone interested.

I've found that Linux is a much, much 'leaner and meaner' OS compared to what MS offers and thus can often make what is considered old, obselete hardware by current market standards run and perform very well even by current standards.

Linux allows a user much, much more choices, if they want to take advantage of it, to determine how and what their computing experience is like. For example, one can choose from a whole range of window-managers. This ranges from some that almost make you think you're running MS Windows to some that hark back to pre-Windows days and everything inbetween.

Linux packages these choices into a whole range of flavors, called 'distros', ranging from very complete, 'kitchen sink' type with everything you can imagine app-wise in it when you install it to some very barebone ones, that then the user installs exactly which apps they want...again all about user choices.

Most Linux distros, apps are free too, so the price is right too...
Although not all are free and I have paid for some that I felt add some value over what I can get free.

This has been my experience the past 2 years. I've found that the more I use Linux, the less interested I've gotten in and felt the need for some company like MS to dictate and decide what my computing experience is going to be like and how long they'll support it.... thereby eliminating a lot of the 'accepting the inevitable' feeling one gets when MS or HP, etc decide to kill off support for a perfectly good platform...

Anyway, just my 2 cents....YMMV...

HTH,


Hurricane John - 2005-06-14 4:19 AM

HDH

Perhaps I missed something, but how would switching to Linux solve the problems you mentioned in your forum post?
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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-06-21 2:38 PM
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ArchiMark, welcome aboard!

Its good to know someone else using linux distros on HPCs. ... I recently flashed opensimpad/opie onto the SL4, and as expected, wifi networking worked out of the box (more or less, with a teeny weeny config).

Somehow I reverted to CE.NET 4.1 and found a working driver for my wifi card. I'm definitely open to trying out linux (as I did for MobilePro 790 and J680e) as do others on the board.

The one thing I really like about the *modern* linux distro is the pkg thingie. It allows you to pull down the list of available apps that you want to install and the pkg_install thingie will grab the pkg and its dependencies automatically. For the most part, its seamless. The only gripe I have about it is that sometimes I really have to guess what each app does!

And again, it depends on individual's needs and how that is easily matched by the linux distros. For someone like me who needs only basic PIM, notes taking, (offline) html file reading and web browsing, having these packages ready and identified (or even bundled as defaults) would really make it more readily accepted.

I do believe that present linux distros can win over users, if 1) they have more custom images with common apps ready to use out of the box and 2) have lesser distros so that its less confusing for users.
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ArchiMark Page Icon Posted 2005-06-21 6:05 PM
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Thanks for the welcome, Snappy!

Really appreciate that!

Glad you like Linux too...

Sounds like you'd like a distro that includes lots of apps to begin with, maybe like the recent Ubuntu, Mepis, etc.

As for me, I've found that I really like Debian using the 'apt-get' system of getting packages installed or sometimes I use 'Synaptic' which adds a visual GUI interface plus descriptions of packages so that you can see what you want to install...

I even have Debian running on my little Zaurus SL-C3000! Works great!
Very cool to see it running on something that fits in my shirtpocket!...

Anyway, anxious for my new 720 to get here and hopefully try out Linux on it....

BTW, just to be clear, I have nothing against WinCE per se, it's just that it's no longer well supported for HPC's and with Linux it really becomes a non-issue I've found....

Again, YMMV....

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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-06-21 6:20 PM
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i agree with most of the things already said. but in my opinion, linux would be a real alternative to users only if it were made more userfriendly.. if the install would be just like a windows install and after that the usage too i know mostly linux is already like that but still not perfect in this respect.. and it can be really scary sometimes. especially if you're trying to boot linux on a HPC.
i'm planning to try it on my jornada 728, but .. if i look, for example, at the packages (those names you can't always guess) i already get discouraged. it all looks so complicated.. i'm sure i'll manage it somehow (and i'm really serious about trying linux on the 728), but still, scary..
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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-06-21 6:50 PM
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ArchiMark - 2005-06-21 4:05 PM

Thanks for the welcome, Snappy!

Really appreciate that!

Glad you like Linux too...

Sounds like you'd like a distro that includes lots of apps to begin with, maybe like the recent Ubuntu, Mepis, etc.

As for me, I've found that I really like Debian using the 'apt-get' system of getting packages installed or sometimes I use 'Synaptic' which adds a visual GUI interface plus descriptions of packages so that you can see what you want to install...

I even have Debian running on my little Zaurus SL-C3000! Works great!
Very cool to see it running on something that fits in my shirtpocket!...

Anyway, anxious for my new 720 to get here and hopefully try out Linux on it....

BTW, just to be clear, I have nothing against WinCE per se, it's just that it's no longer well supported for HPC's and with Linux it really becomes a non-issue I've found....

Again, YMMV....



... well, truth be known, I do have SimplyMepis and I like it alot! ... if it has Chinese language support (proper), I would use it as my base OS! ... and also get it installed on the others around me!

actually, Chinese *is* supported, though not activated/installed by default. So I am just lazy to go figure out the settings for it! ... I read some post on the forum and kinda stopped there ... hehe

I'm kinda with cmonex on the ease of installation and usage of linux on HPCs. That a person is using a HPC and not a Palm or Zaurus would kinda indicate the slant towards a windows user. The obstacle I faced with most of the linux distro for HPCs is that it needs a linux desktop to setup the CF card or the HPC directly. This is a showstopper for most (windows) users.

NetBSD distro on the other hand allows windows users to use a bootloader to load up a install image, which is basically a very tiny NetBSD image with bare kernel and a install app ready to run. It allows the user to install NetBSD without using or touching a NetBSD/linux PC. Cool Factor+20 Usefulness +20

opensimpad for SL4 is pretty decent too as it allows upload via the serial link from a windows PC. Granted its slow, very slow 115kbps!, it works and users do not need a linux machine to start off.

It's like those early days when you need to have a DOS boot disk to even start installation! Loose the boot disk and you are moot! Nowadays, bootable CDROM makes installation of windows so much easier. The parallel here is that if linux distros for HPCs get to that stage of ease of installation, pickup will surge.

I just hope the HPC hardware survive long enough for the linux distros to mature.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-06-22 7:06 AM
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Hey Snappy!

You just placed a thought on how we can make things a little easier for H/PC users to deal with the Linux host requirement.

If we can run up a bootable CD ISO with a 2.6 kernel (USB support on kernel level) as well as ATAPI support, get a scriptable partitioning software app on it and just present a menu system. Press:
1. to clear partition table on CF0
2. To install partitions
3. Format
4. Send Shutdown

I can get the ISO up here on the site for registered users to burn and boot.

Sound remotely plausible?
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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-06-22 12:32 PM
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Hi C:amie!

I think it is totally plausible. Maybe we can link up with some of the hpc linux distro and see if they would like to work together on this.

Maybe before the menu you mentioned, the first menu may also be like this:

HPC Linux Installation Wizard

********************
* DEVICE SELECTION *
********************

1. MIPS device (NEC Mobile Pro 770/780/790, CLIO etc)
2. ARMS device (Jornada 720/728 etc)
3. SH3 device (Jornada 680/680e etc)
4. Others

Press (1-4) to select a device type

After that, the suitable distro is selected and then come the menu you listed.

This could work out once we test out the status of the linux distros on the different HPCs. And would be smoother if the linux folks would chip in too!
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-06-22 3:05 PM
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That's very forward thinking of you... have it copy the OS files to the CF after preping it.

What a team
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Guyturf Page Icon Posted 2005-06-22 9:54 PM
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Please do this someone!!!

I would be absolutely thrilled to have the chance to try linux on my 780 or my 900c... especially as it ensures that a great machine will remain useful long after microsoft has quit supporting them as it looks like the new activesync and next windows will do to the 780.

I've never had the chance to do more than play with linux on a desktop, but from what I saw...

woo!



I like!

The HPC Linux edition... could be the wave of the future for HPC's!

Imagine!
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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-06-22 10:24 PM
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Guyturf - 2005-06-22 7:54 PM

Please do this someone!!!

I would be absolutely thrilled to have the chance to try linux on my 780 or my 900c... especially as it ensures that a great machine will remain useful long after microsoft has quit supporting them as it looks like the new activesync and next windows will do to the 780.

I've never had the chance to do more than play with linux on a desktop, but from what I saw...

woo!



I like!

The HPC Linux edition... could be the wave of the future for HPC's!

Imagine!


I'm with you there and I'm sure I speak for many others. Esp when the latest ASync drops LAN support! grrr

well, not that it affects me. I rarely if ever ASync! ... I just install via cab files or manually copy to my CF card.

But having the linux option definitely opens up the horizon for older HPCs and users! When the distros mature, hopefully, it will also mean the lengthening of life for these HPCs. This could be bad news for MS and gang. Why? 'cos if the linux distros mature and folks get the hang of linux as their HPC (or PDA) OS, then the natural tendency is to get another HPC/PDA with linux OS when its time to (finally) retire it.

At the rate that old/used/refurbished stocks of HPCs are dumped on z Bay, there is great potential for linux to soak up these users.

well, in the meantime, let's try to work out the loose ends.
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takwu Page Icon Posted 2005-06-22 11:50 PM
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Snappy! - 2005-06-22 7:24 PM
This could be bad news for MS and gang. Why? 'cos if the linux distros mature and folks get the hang of linux as their HPC (or PDA) OS, then the natural tendency is to get another HPC/PDA with linux OS when its time to (finally) retire it.

Well, considering that MS abandoned the HPC market (which is admittedly not very profittable, at least in the last few years), and the fact that no more CE-based HPC-like devices are being sold anymore (unless you count the Netbook Pro), it isn't truely bad news for MS.
However, if the HPC market picks up again, MS should have the ability to regain it. Afterall, they do hold the huge PPC market, and there are still a lot of former Jornada 720/728 users who wouldn't go to the Linux side.
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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-06-23 11:25 AM
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ok, a list of apps I feel is needed as basic:

1. Datebook calendar
2. Contacts
3. Memo notes
4. Tasks
5. eBook reader
6. Backup app
7. Web browser
*optional*
8. mp3 player
9. voice recorder
10. video player
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HDH Page Icon Posted 2005-06-24 6:40 AM
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Good Morning all,

I am pleased to read that I am not the only person interested in a Linux environment on HPC. It would be great if a distribution would be available for the HPC platforms with a few basic applications that could be increased over time. Contrary to the belief of many marketing experts, there is a market for HPC’s. As somebody who travels a lot logging my notebook with 5 lbs (and this doesn’t include spare battery, PSU, adapter and a few other bits) is not very pleasant. Writing reports and checking documentation is very difficult on a PPC with no keyboard. I watched a colleague doing that on his PPC recently, what a performance. My J720 would be ideal, if the CE applications would not be so limited. The first time I discovered that Pocket Excel did not have graphics support I was fuming like Queen Mary leaving Southampton port. My Zaurus ZR-5700 with 0.5 MB operating system even manages that without problems.
Why do hardware manufacturer have to dictate the OS-system? Would they not gain much bigger market share, if they supply the hardware separate from the software? I am sure this is the single biggest reason why the HPC occupies only a niche in the market. So listen hardware manufacturers one new HPC without pre-specified OS please. Let the market decide what sells and what not.

Anyway I hope we will make progress on this subject in due course and I would be really pleased if a Linux distribution would work on the J720.
I very much hope that the HPC will make a comeback in the near future and we will see some new updated hardware.

Have a nice day!
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