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Brexit: Because Jake wanted to know....

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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2018-12-23 8:07 PM
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HPC:Fan - 2018-12-23 8:00 PM

There's always answers, and it may not be politically correct or easy. I won't delve into it all, however I'll use Norway in my example here.

For every grown immigrant, Norway uses roughly 1+ million kroner to provide for that person yearly. Immigrant children are upwards of 7+ million yearly. Now an immigrant family of five costs Norway (oil funds and through taxes) 23+ million kroner a year. That's 2.6+ million USD / 2+ million GBP yearly. Now let's take a 100 immigrant families based on the the above, how much do they cost? 2,300,000,000 Norwegian kroner yearly. (260,000,000 USD / 208,000,000 GBP)

This is outright unsustainable. And yes, retirement age increases but in this case it was specifically due to "new Swedes" and the government frantically trying to sustain a sinking ship. I don't know if socialism will work out, but again I don't know if any -ism will work out. It's a crap shoot as it stands now.

I really hate talking about all of this, I should have just kept my mouth shut.

Interesting. I've not seen figures like this. Are these for asylum seekers or all economic migrants? Is is exceptional to or comparable with domestic welfare figures?

I know we spend a lot on asylum claims, as we take the obligation to protect the vulnerable. Entitlement for economic migrants isn't anything like that though.
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Jake Page Icon Posted 2018-12-23 10:21 PM
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Chris, I did read something that breaks down Brexit as better for older Brits but worse, economically, for younger Brits.

As someone who lives nearby the White House and Congress, Brexit--though it's going to be very important to American interests--is lost in our misguided immigration policies.

I'm all for stemming illegal immigration, but a wall is antiquated folly. The US gov't has just shut down over a demand for 5 billion USD for wall construction. If the US is insistent on spending that figure to solve illegal immigration, the gov't should take 5 billion cash in denominations of 5-dollar bills and simply air-drop the bills over poorer sections of Mexico and Central America. A 5-billion dollar cash infusion might make people stay more than a 5-billion dollar wall is going to keep them out.

Hard to believe no one takes my advice around here ,
Jake
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2018-12-23 10:35 PM
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I'm thinking that everyone who gains entry into the United States by any means other than lawful immigration lottery should be required to perform 5 years of indentured servitude. I could use a housekeeper and could afford one if only room and board was my responsibility. Thinking the federal government could contribute $500 a month to be held in trust. Once the 5 years are complete, they could take their $30,000 and start afresh however they like.

I'd like to place my order now for an 18 yo young hispanic girl who would be willing to get a head.
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HPC:Fan Page Icon Posted 2018-12-23 10:39 PM
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C:Amie, this is for immigrants / asylum seekers. Actual Norwegians on the government dole gets much, much less. I find it "funny" that these "refugees" pass up safe countries closer to home and specifically target rich, socialist countries.

I could tell you a few personal experiences, but they lean very heavily in my favor so I won't as to not seem like I'm fluffing up my own side.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2018-12-23 11:33 PM
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I thought Mexico was paying for the wall?

I've yet to be convinced that the hardship the youth expect is actually much more than an inconvenience. I'm certainly willing to hear the argument, but to date all I ever hear from young people are the same pre-conditioned lines on "bigotry/racist", "ruining our future", "won't be able to get jobs".

My thoughts:
They'll have to pay £6 for a 4-year tourist visa
They'll have to pay (far cheaper) uni tuition fees than domestically
They'll likely need travel insurance now, like they do for the other 130 odd countries on the planet
The numbers of young people who work /study in the EU are nominal to make this as big a problem as the media want to make out
They won't be able to work while unskilled. Oh but wait. My cousin met her soon to be Aussie husband cleaning chalets in France. Last time I checked Australia wasn't inn the EU?!
Once they're skilled, they will have to go through the same process as any American/Australian/Canadian/Kiwi, and I've never heard them complaining that getting into the EU was unfair/racist. I hear more about issues getting into the USA in actuality!

In the absence of being able to find a young person who can yet articulate this to me. I am of the opinion that it is actually a rose tinted glasses problem doled out by Remain because Leave didn't spend any money here.


On the $5b, as much as you jested there, you probably aren't wrong! Unless it has an armed guard post every 50m, it'll be as useful as the IE/NI, Israel/Gaza, Gaza/Egypt, Israel/West Bank walls were/are. Unfortunately, unless it is literally air dropped on a residential district, 90% of it will vanish into the corrupt hands of the Plutarchy anyway. :rolleye:
Still, it's a nice idea.


I share concerns over the first safe harbour issue. Getting into the EU in the east and then criminally crossing the entire continent to show up at our borders, terrorise tourists and freight hauliers on French roads, destroy all their papers then 'claim' to be 16. Say's you're an economic migrant. They cottoned on that our asylum rules prohibited the expulsion of minors, so everyone is 16 now and whoops, no papers.

Of course they just need to get a relative to set foot in the country and they can claim guardian requirements.

I've always wondered how we can be culturally so different. If I thought my family needed asylum, I'd take me and them and get the the first safe place possible and then have a conversation about "my second language is English, can we go to England". It's astonishing that it's seldom ever the daughters/sisters/young children/elderly who turn up. Always the first born son's who need asylum. Tyranny is highly selective it seems.
Of course it's not, it's economic migration playing our own generosity and undermining hope for people who really deserve it. People and their families who we should be helping.

We've had a wave of people trying to get across the English Channel on dingies recently because they can't get through the Channel Tunnel or onto ferries any more. It's one of the most dangerous waterways in the world. I have family in the RNLI who have to go out and seriously risk their lives to try and recover them. As a consequence of that, I offer precisely zero sympathy. If they wanted asylum, they should have walked up to a border guard and asked for it or done likewise at an embassy, consulate or high commission in any other of the counties they clambered through. The majority want to get over here, disappear into the night and find themselves a refugee chasing lawyer to hook them up with some socialism. That really undermines our ability to help people and their families who are in need of fleeing direct oppression, persecution and violence.
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HPC:Fan Page Icon Posted 2018-12-24 9:49 AM
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"Of course it's not, it's economic migration playing our own generosity and undermining hope for people who really deserve it. People and their families who we should be helping."

And there's the crux of it all. The money spent helping a few could be better spent helping thousands in their own country. There's absolutely no need to take in asylum seekers when there's better alternatives. Norway has proposed building safe, guarded shelters closer to their countries which would be able to help so many more than what we can by way of immigration. Not sure what happened to that proposal though.

And yes, people do not realize how big an issue there is with immigrants throwing their passports away. I knew of an Egyptian here in Norway, he was a delivery driver and came legally in 1990. However, his cousin who was a relatively well paid doctor in Egypt wanted to live in Norway. So, they got an airline ticket and came over. Their passports were destroyed and the next day they went to the police station to seek asylum.

There's been reports where police stations have emptied trash and found dozens of passports belonging to foreign nationals who have applied for asylum for ineligible countries.

And in Sweden, it's been proven that the majority of "children" refugees are a lot older than 18. Yes, the M.E. is hell right now, but we're not providing asylum to the needy. We're providing a cash check to fighting age men.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2018-12-24 11:40 AM
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You won't find much argument from me. We stopped using the foreign aid budget for national interest decades ago. Now it's used to do the nice thing in our rose tinted world. We are the worlds top foreign aid contributor by GDP and we've been the top "on the ground" provider of emergency aid in the various recent conflicts. Yet we've been criticised, vilified and demonised for it.

They appear to think that giving one person a £0.5m property and a guaranteed income can somehow scale to the millions of people that on the ground assistance can provide.

Is it any wonder the public want the foreign aid budget slashed? Of course to the left that's just more proof that anyone who disagrees is a racist xenophobic bigot.

I wouldn't say 'fighting age', I would say the the male line hereditary and stereotypical bread winner.
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HPC:Fan Page Icon Posted 2018-12-24 5:15 PM
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I say fighting age because the majority are 18+. This is a ticking time bomb for Europe. Both socially and economically.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2018-12-24 5:27 PM
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All part of the reason why I want us to be free of the ECJ so we can make our own mistakes and not have to ask permission to find our own solutions any more.

Anyone know the answer to my pub quiz question?
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2018-12-24 10:48 PM
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Repeat the question…
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2018-12-24 11:49 PM
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C:Amie - 2018-12-23 7:25 PM

Here's a god pub quiz question for you all (do American's have pub quizzes?).

I wrote my little essays above using the terms Executive, Legislative and Judicial systems, which while totally applicable to our constitution isn't really terminology that we commonly use in Britain. The tripartite model is the Montesquieu separation.

Does anyone know what the quaintly British equivalent is and who coined it?

This is a tough pub quiz question and I'd be amazed if anyone knew, but it has appeared in pop-culture in the last year or so.
Your wish is my command
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CE Geek Page Icon Posted 2018-12-25 9:55 AM
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Rich Hawley - 2018-12-24 2:48 PM

Repeat the question…


That's the first time I've ever seen anyone type that in an online forum. Geez, how hard is it to go back a page?

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C:Amie - 2018-12-24 9:27 AM

All part of the reason why I want us to be free of the ECJ so we can make our own mistakes and not have to ask permission to find our own solutions any more.


Usually the way alliances work is that the others make the mistakes and then demand that you find the solutions for them.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2018-12-25 11:09 AM
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You do understand the EU
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2018-12-25 2:48 PM
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It's hard CEGeek...hard for me...so the question was "Does anyone know what the quaintly British equivalent is and who coined it?"

Specifically the questions pertains to the 3 part government concept?

After extensive Google searching my answer is "no."
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Mjolnir Page Icon Posted 2018-12-25 3:38 PM
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C:Amie - 2018-12-24 5:27 PM

All part of the reason why I want us to be free of the ECJ so we can make our own mistakes and not have to ask permission to find our own solutions any more.

Anyone know the answer to my pub quiz question?
Just a guess: Your system is "a weak separation of powers" (A. V. Dicey) better characterized as a "fusion of powers" put forth by Walter Bagehot and expounded upon in "The Harmonious Constitution" - https://web.archive.org/web/20090507183313/http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nuls...
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