CE beat Palm OS :(

<<ENTER Linux. (Or buy an old mac that runs on OS 8.1...the last REAL Mac OS.>>

Tell me why Mac OS 8.1 was the last great OS? WEhy is OS 8.1 better than OS 9.1 or even OSX? Have you ever used OSX or OS 9? What about 8.1 makes it better than later oses?I wnat to learn.

The reason why I believe OS 8.x to be better than other versions of Mac OS is strictly my own opinion. The reason why I believe the OS 9.x to not be as good as 8 is because that one ran as a pure powerpc architecture, which is different than the original Motorola 68x processor that the original Macintoshes of all the years before used. The software environment is also a bit different.

As far as OS X, this I am strongly against it being a Mac OS system, because it runs on Unix. The original Mac OS was very original, and did something that had never been done before. It made a very reliable system that anyone could use, and worked with hardware made many years after the computer was. Hard tasks on other systems were so simple to use, even tasks like formatting a drive and installing the system anyone who could read and use a mouse could do.

I am just beginning to repeat what I wrote in my earlier posts. But anyways, Mac OS 8.x was the last system from apple that ran like all the other ones did. OS 9 added some good improvements, but OS X just completely left the original Macintosh platform, to compete with Microsoft and have a chance. The world is cruel in that way.

I have used all of these systems, and grew up with a Macintosh SE which was running Mac OS 7. My favorite system was always OS 8, as to me it had the best interface and nice colors/pictures. Extremists believe Mac OS 7 to be the death of Mac OS, but those reasons I will put on another post if you want me to. (It would be a long speech) The reason why I prefer OS 8 is that it is the last system that is easy to emulate, as IT was the last one to use the 68040 Macintosh processor. OS 9 just was purely powerpc.

I am really starting to babble here.

Rather interesting thread ... brings back much memories too ...

>Microsoft has messed up the platform, with their ppc's causing Palm to make theirs >similar for the money.

this is rather interesting. It is a free market and different companies have the options to stick to their design or not. Of cos in copying other's design and roadmap, they run the possible risk of copyright issue (but hey, which company is not in a copyright suit these days?)

Ultimately, the free market is not about who is right and who is wrong, but the consumer rules. The dollar from the pocket of the user is what ultimately decides who is left, and not who is right.

If M$ was wrong about PPC strategy, and their addition of multimedia, color screens and other wizbangs is "messing" up the platform, then they would not have won, as the users would not buy into it.

Sure, we can always blame it on their deep pockets and stuffs, but are users really so dumb, that they will just buy into it just because it is around for a long enough time? Give end-users more credits for that.

Ultimately, I think what really tilted the balance in the PDA segment was the release of sleek and cool devices from Compaq. The iPaq series (in my memory) was the turning point in design, away from the dull gray of HP, the blocky Cassiopeia (darn, the name itself is hard to remember or write!). The fact is, this is a consumer front that the PDAs are fighting in, not a research paper to trash out what system is technically better.

I read a book about User Interaction designs "The lunatics are running the Asylum" and it cited Palm Pilot among other products that won over the users with good planning and design. Did not Palm win over the users who were milling around with the sharp digital organizers for so many years? There were so many companies with digital organizers offering similar if not the same functionality as the 1st gen PIM on the Palm Pilots. Palm won because of the "innovative" change they introduced in their design. Among them, was the grafitti. While many looked upon it as a fancy gimick that added to the cool factor, the fact is that, the grafitti together with long battery life etc cut the deal for Palm.

Now, looking at the PPC, is it not true that ultimately, users have cast their vote for color screens and multimedia stuffs? If not, why would RIM add color to their devices as well? Granted, all companies are there to make money to provide a job for their employees, including PalmOne. So it is only natural that they would mold their product for maximum returns.

And as someone said rightly, if M$ did not enter the fray, would PalmOne stick to their older designs and not add the color screens and wizbangs? I believe they may, but only for so long as they can still squeeze out $$ from the users without increasing h/w cost.

In effect, M$ was there to break the monopoly on the PDA market and effectively cause the prices to drop (good news for us!?). But I think what most of us are unhappy with is what M$ *might* do once it has won the battle. Recall IE stagnantation etc. But come on, which company is not like that? Which company would go around saying "hey, you know what, let me pump in billions of dollars into this market and come up with more cool features every few months ... and not charge you for a single cent?"

About Linux not for stupid users, I first dabbled with Linux in '95. M$ was introducing Win95 (rather late) and I was one of those fellas who refused to migrate. So I tried running linux and stuffs. It was cool when it was finally setup. My PC felt like it was suddenly on steroids and ready to kick a**. But then there was just a slight problem ... there was not adequate apps to run to show off linux in its full glory. Sure, I managed to run like 5~6 Doom in separate windows off my PC (486 DX33 overclocked to 40~50), but that was that. Of cos now we have much much much more apps like openoffice etc. But it took like what almost 10yrs for it to happen.

I am trying to run linux on my (arriving) NEC MP790 and the closest I have seen is NetBSD for it. And there are only a handful of screenshots from successful users who manage to boot up from the CF card. And among these, most "show off" the boot up sequence with the console and logs etc, but that's that. THere is only a small fraction who managed to put up screenshots of the GUI and real apps running. Maybe these linux users are all too modest ... ... but I doubt so.

>At this point, Psion effectively gave up on the consumer PDA. Microsoft had won through larger hardware manufacturing base, massive R&D budget and had crushed its competitor.

Yes, M$ almost always crush its competitor with its massive R&D budget. hmmm ... so what does that tell me about this company? That it is not just interested in milking users and giving themselves fat paychecks, but also in investing in R&D to come up with whatever is users will want. I would not want to get something from companies that refuse to spend research dollars would I?

>Through their OEM manufacturers, Microsoft can play the eye candy game and win >- the OEMs will fight amongst each other to show the sexiest, sleekest devices, and >MS does not have to stump up the hardware R&D costs

M$ is primarily a software company (other than the keyboards, mouse, Xbox and discontinued wifi networking line), so whats new that they do not stump up hardware R&D. I can imagine if M$ start doing more hw, that will make people slap them with more DOJ no?

Come to think of it, M$ would not go into the h/w biz, at least with current market conditions. It would otherwise destroy the vendor relations it has with its h/w partners. Look at PalmOne, it even bought over Handspring and now Sony, its only h/w ally left, has left the US market.

To quote an article about WinXP SP2, M$ is in a no win situation (although they are clearly winning $$$). They are in the "D*** if they do, d*** if they don't!". The article cites firewall and security apps as the issues at hand. If they incorporate a powerful firewall into windows, they get into DOJ, their s/w partners scream. If they do not have a firewall (like they did in the past), the users scream.

The bane of being successful.

Snappy!, I will put my answer in the form of a question : Why do cellphones have cameras and games? Why do people use digital cameras and expensive printers + ink instead of film to get the same result?

I do in some cases consider the average end user to have little knowledge, and they think that eye candy makes a product better. Yet I have had eye candy products that were the worst that I have ever used :shiver: (lol C:Amie that would be a funny emoticon)

(For being such a nerd I do prefer the old way for practical reasons. In that, I also mean that I will probably never buy one of those ridiculous internet refrigerators)

-Oh yeah, C:Amie I think I found a bug in statistics. It says that there have been 1008 user sessions this week and 561 this month. Is a month shorter than a week?

Edited by programsynthesiser 2004-12-04 11:51 PM

Actually, I am with you regarding having too much functionalities into devices. But where I differ is that while M$ or any other companies can put what they want in the device, ultimately it is users who will choose where their $$ goes and with it, the market trend.

Today we cannot imagine cars without air-conditioners, cup-holders etc. But back in the early days of automobile, these are considered luxuries and nothing to do with cars. I mean, having cup-holders or not, the car is going to work and get us there right? So why are things like cup-holders, air-cons etc standard today?

If digicams + exp printers are just a fad (what isn't anyway!? ), they will go the way of Clipper (ala the annoying help wizard that M$ think is cool and useful), or MS Bob. M$ and almost all other companies who spend $$ into R&D churn up tons of ideas yearly, some hits and some misses. The last I check, it is the consumers who will decide which are hits and which are misses. M$ with all its $$$, cannot simply force users to buy products if it has zero benefit to them.



Yes, I agree that the avg end user hover towards eye candiness ... so is it M$ fault for that? If that is the case, then Apple should be faulted for coming up with iPod, iMac, G5 and all those cool sleek products that capture the loyalty of Mac fans.

M$ is a behemoth. And at times a bully. But when it does get its forumla right, lets not condemn it. Besides, M$ is not the one who come up with h/w, they only come up with the platform specs and recommendations, so if we want to shoot someone for the sleek factors, it should be the OEMs like Compaq, Acer, Dell for coming out with cool, affordable devices that has nice color screens and support standard CF/SDIO products from 3rd parties at cheaper prices.



hehe ... ya, I also laugh at the idea of internet refrigerators. But in one of the B2B EAI projects that I did back in 2001, MNCs are already linking up their reseller-retail-sales-warehouse-factory backend to automate the whole chain. It may not be feasible tomorrow or in a few years time, but my gut feel is that if there is no major disaster in US or world for the next 5~10 yrs, the concept of internet fridge can become a reality. Maybe not in exactly the same way we see it now, but a variation.

Come to think of it, maybe the concept would be better off for printers. Afterall, printer drivers can detect the catridge levels already. Just offer a link up to an online retailer, payment by paypal or credit. The driver could either prompt the user to confirm the transaction or do it in the background automatically. So users get a seamless, always running printer without having to worry about the ink running out or something. Of cos, it is a bit overkill for endusers but this could be a good idea for SMB or corps. Hmmm ... maybe I can look for some VCs to fund this idea ...

For now, I am content to faxing in my grocery list to the supermart and collecting it from them instead of spending a few hours going through the mart.

btw, I use a T3 and I love it for its SD slot that allows me to expand on my storage etc. The older Palms did not have it and only after Handspring, Sony and the M$ camp started having expansion slots, did Palm followed up.

And now I look at T3 and I am like, why on earth does PalmOne sell its SD wifi card for $129 when PDAs from the M$ camp can easily extend their device with a $30 wifi cf card? And for that matter, more of the M$ camp devices already have wifi built-in. PalmOne's T|W is the only device with wifi built-in. To add salt to injury, PalmOne's SD wifi card only works on T5, T3 and Zire72. Is that proprietary or what?

So is it any wonder that CE beat Palm OS?

I'm going to receive my NEC MP790 soon and if it works out, I'm going to dump my T3. Why am I dumping a relatively "cool" and new pda for an older wince hpc? Because PalmOne is just too stuck-up on their pricing and closed-platform policy. If an old wince HPC (outdated?) product can deliver wifi internet access, why is PalmOne still living in the dark-ages thinking that users are going to go goo-goo over bigger internal ram and no wifi? And still expect users to pay through their nose for less?

T5 + wifi == $399 + $129 = $528!
T3 + wifi == $349 + $129 = $478!
Z72 + wifi == $299 + $129 = $428!
T|W is not even listed on PalmOne's page with pricing.

Dell Axim X50v Handheld (624MHz, VGA, wifi, BT) = $449
Dell Axim X30 Handheld (624MHz, wifi & BT) = $314
MP790 + wifi == <$200

PalmOne is loosing customers maybe because it is too stuck on its simple-is-good formula for too long. They are not improving their products fast enough to meet with market demands (read users demand), hence the $$ from users will not go to them and with it, their market share.

The numbers speak for themselves I guess.

SideNote: Nintendo DS retails for ~$150 and has wifi/BT built-in. Someone is porting linux over to it ...

I've got a bit behind on this one. So lets see if I can't catch up again.


I was a little surprised at the fact they pulled out of the free ISO areana and moved into a more consolidated business structure. Good on them though.

While the product may have become everything that the infamous Joe Geek and his friends don't want. It has become a polished, highly supported platform from the commercial stance. It is easy to update, relativly (ha ha ha) easy to control from the GUI - a must from a new users perspective - yea shell scripting may be "all that", but most end users flatly don't care
RedHat have provided the first steps that Linux needs to compete in the real world, even if they've damaged the linux dream a touch in the process.


I don't agree that Microsoft should be obligated - nor should take a trip into Anti-virus. Patching an operating system from a hole is a different game to disinfectng a virus. Ultimatly viruses are there to do damage and gain exposure. Ignoring the spcifically targeted high level cyber crime ones. The majority of works, viruses and tojans have one thing in common. They go for the common denominator - Windows. Not because it is necessarily easy, but because that is where they are going to inflict the most damage from the least effort.
Microsoft's patching efforts in the past were admitedly shambolic, slow and difficult. Now-a-days they are less shambolic and more structured with better delivery systems. Again there is a flip side on that. It's easy if you're a end user, but a headache dealing with ## updates all at once.

Where I cannot argue on Microsoft's case is when it comes to low level kernel faults. There are a number of them know to Microsoft in 9x, NT4, 2000 and indeed XP. However they refuse to fix them as the resulting code would mean a massive end user update and resultant chaos.
Low level Kernel updates are something that the *nix community has integrated into their every day lives, they're used to it and there are processes in place to ensure that the problems are dealt with in smalles possible payload.

With the virus issue, just look at CE. There is becoming a market there for the black hats to write the malware as the number of people hooking them up to the internet, and checking email on them has increased exponentially. Before 2004 Windows CE viruses were little more than something parasitic that proxied back to the host. Now there are documented cases where people have written the delivery systems and on two occasions now given it a trial run againse CE4.


Actually I think you will find that the Internet Backbone in Unix. There are more servers as linux roll outs - once you have the skills in house to do it - are cheaper as there is no licensing overhead on-top of the hardware overhead.
Microsoft make servers for a raft of other reasons aside IIS. All MS server modules are MS server reliant, and of course the MS Directory Services need MS servers. IIS was secondary and was a way to provide Intranet functinality originally and then a way to allow developers to take what they knew about writing for Win32 and then apply that to the internet.


Yes that is completly true, although personally I've not encountered all these sync problems with WinCE. With PalmOS you are again limited centrally to a sync client - with third party available. Like wise the PIM host. Bear in mind that my palm experience started in the Palm Pilot days - you couldn't even import third party pim properly, let alone sync with anyone elses client!
So you still needed third paty software to get things dome with Palm - Yes Conduits are app integrated these days.


Careful now, face to face makes the action of flaming a completly different spectator sport.
Chiarks buying everybody! Bring your lighters.


O-U-C-H. There in lies the problem with Linux and why it isn't main stream.
Does that equate to if you've never touched Linux you must be a stupid computer user?

"e.g." means "exemplum gratii"
""cf." means "confer"


Yes because part of the week was in November and Part of it in December, the week total is the past 7 days and "this month" is the total since 0000 hours on the first.


Yes :shudders:
Horrible little things IMHO

-----

I think essentially the conclusion here is that we are all technically experienced users and we are all arguing the case for the technically experienced user. The considerations of the end user as Snappy! has pointed out are a different mindset from the considerations and demands that we ourselves place upon the electronics that we own.
Where as in the case I can argue a detachment from Linux because I can view the Linux community from both a business centric and middle of the road Linux user perspective, when it comes to arguing the toss over the user and constraints of QVGA's the likes of Palm and the Pocket PC, frankly I don't offer any apologies for holding the view that I find one platform more functional over another.

It is this affinity that pervads within Information Technology that can make it both exciting and devicive in the same breath. If it didn't exist or indeed any one of us had taken upon a different view then the chances are that this site, myself and the rest of the team would either be inviting a very different scope of conversation - or more likeley wouldn't be here at all. In the same light, neither would any of you be here reading this now (and mumbling to yourselves just how wrong you think I am).

What perhaps this incredibly high brow thread has made me think about is that one thing that the Handheld PC is currently lacking is that appeal to the proverbal Generic end user. So lets try and move things along here.

Could the sleeker looks of the Jornada 728 have made a difference had its production run laster longer than the 11 months it stood for? Had Microsoft remained more level headded and detached from the activities on the field of battle with Palm during this time, could we have seen more of the Handheld PC during 2003 and 2004? Could these Windows CE sales figures have been even higher as a result?

Lastly, can the Handheld PC form factor directly address that thirst the consumer world has for technology, innovation and design. What changes will be needed to allow it to achieve this?

I would just like to say one last thing.
The level of thoughts and opinions that have come out in what has been said both here and throught the forum has exceeded my wildest expectations even at this early stage. I am so extreamly humbled at where this topic and indeed the forum has gone at the direction of you all. Likewise in how the variety of opinions and ideas displayed on these pages have been received.
It truly is an honour to be part of this community. My thanks to you all.

I LIKE CLIPPER!!! Have any of you watched all the animations? lol. C:Amie, I am also so grateful that I found this forum and that the users on it have such good opinions/knowledge. In saying cf in my earlier posts I meant compactflash, so Chiark's post confused me.

Sadly, it seems like this thread is coming to the end. In a sad attempt to fuel it again, I will say this. Once you figure out how to do something with the command line, you see how much more efficient and faster it is. (Especially compared to those terrible buggy gui controls) (remembers mandrake :shudder: )

ok, programsynth, let me give u a hand ... hehe

Truth be told, I find myself writing scripts or batch files (??) on WinXP when it comes to dealing with repetitive work on a large number of files. The GUI on Windows is good for drag and drop ... and drag and drop .... and drag and drop ....

or

While (1){
func_drag(szFilename);
func_drop(szFilename);
}

too bad it is not as simple to implement drag drop in c++ in windows ... gosh those IDE OLE stuffs !!!!

------------------------------------------
Conspiracy Theory #105

M$ together with the OEMs snubbed the HPC factor because it is becoming a threat to the desktop market.

In 2000, Win2k was launched to lurkwarm results as corporate clients were rather happily using NT4.0 without having to upgrade their hardware. NT4.0, despite all the complaints we may have about them, was simply too good for M$. Corp clients had no strong reasons to upgrade. So M$ with its leagues of OEMs were stuck with a no-show for 2000~2001.

WinMe for the end-user was a disaster. M$ reposition Win2k Pro for semipro end-users. Sees some surge in sales for OEMs and its licenses. Overall still low.

Towards 3rd quarter of 2001 when WinXP was launched, it was again met with uncertainty as there are so much rumours of incompatibility and such. Again corp clients are pissed because some of them just migrated to win2k or were half way through the migration process!

Throughout the time from Win2k until now, eventhough overall usage of Windows on desktop PC has become more stable and friendlier (?), the promise of instant-on initiated by various OEMs (and M$?) and chip makers (AMD?) failed to deliver.

Amidst the foray, HPC devices are actually there with instant-On, small-mini-laptop form factor, *long* battery life etc. Imagine if M$ did not have crippled versions of office on the devices ... I bet the masses would have migrated to HPCs. Esp NEC MP series where you could easily hook up to a large monitor and use it like a desktop and unhook and go with much much more portability than a laptop/notebook.

BUT ... a big one ... M$ would not do that for a few reasons:
1. Pocket apps are bundled as part of the HPC package, hence if they include full or near-full versions, it would hurt their desktop sales
2. If HPCs pull it off, M$ would have to seriously rethink its strategy and move enmass onto HPCs (?)
3. Wince devices at that time is not beefed up enough to run full blown apps.

While many of us think that M$ earn a lot through its OS licensing, it is not exactly like what we have in mind. Retail copy of desktop OS license goes for say $100~$200 a pop. OEMs do not get them at that price. It is more in the $10~50 range. The reason for the huge range is due to difference in volumes.

Likewise for the OS license in PDAs/HPCs/PPCs. They get something even lesser <<$10 a pop. For that price, if they bundle full office apps (assuming they can run effectively), they would kill their ca$h cow on the desktop while not getting much from the HPC side.

If they start charging more for the HPC like full blown desktop versions, then the icing for wince is gone. There is no (strong) advantage of wince device compared to Palm. For both platforms, u need to fork out some $$ to get office apps, although of late, PalmOne is bundling with some versions (crippled?) of DocsToGo etc.

Either way, they have to get their $$ from somewhere and I reckon they decided to draw the line at the desktop and use the HPC as just a battleground. Better fight on another person's territory; that way, if you win, you gain ground. If you loose, you can always pull back.

#3 That wince devices cannot run full blown app is what M$ and its cliques would want you to think. Afterall, if they can sell you a two-seater sportster, a 4X4MPV *AND* a cool beetle, why should they just sell you an RV? So, M$, its OEMs and any other company on earth would rather have you buy a desktop and carry a notebook plus get a PPC (or HPC if it doesn't hurt the other segments), than to come up with one single device that can double up as a desktop, ultra-portable *and* allow you to make phone calls!

Hence, HPC have to go ... until M$ and its legions figure out how to get this formfactor to ring the register without hurting the other market segments.

Now if I were PalmOne, and I want to hurt M$ bad, I would come up with a HPC device that is powerful enough to run proper web browsing, email, simple wordpro etc *AND* (a big one here), be standalone. No HotSync required with any PC whatsoever.

Actually, I've not HotSynced my T3 with a PC for the past 4~5 mths. I bet many of you folks are doing that as well. A simple backup app does the job. The only thing that got me somewhat back on a PC (and really pissed with PalmOne) is the fact that they charge $129 for its SDIO wifi card that only works on three of its own device and not on anyone else.

So, when my MP790 arrives, I'll start using it as my web browser / email client / PIM / PDA / wordproc etc. With a wireless DSL gateway from qwest for internet access, who needs a PC?

True, very true. As I have stated before, palm is not as good as it used to be. The older versions had amazing compatibility with so many devices I can't even remember. I mean, those very old palms (I think around 1998 or so) had a serial modem. That was kinda cool. And they released a wireless model a few years back that was also reasonable. But the way it is now is ridiculous. There is not the same kind of compatibility, they are more like pocketpc's struggling to work the old way while having new features. Those don't mix very well. The prices on them are also ridiculous as I remember I wanted to buy a sony clie that was $800 (looked very nice, probably was, but a ppc with the same features I could get for $300-400, so I got an hpc which was better than them all ) My 720 with wireless card came to $250, when I am done with it it will come to a little over $300. Better than all the others and a heck of a lot cheaper too.

Don't get me wrong here, I do use the command line as and when, although my VBS is way too limited. The new Command Line in Longhorn should certainly be an interesting challenge to Shell scripting.


10 points to Snappy! for getting the site name in there... but loose 20 for saying OEM's snub us!

You argument does fall over somewhat when you loose at the current internal activities within Microsoft that are looking into building (but NOT bundling) MS Office Mobile for Windows Mobile. One can expect something to rival SoftMaker out of them, with the usual Microsoft bells and whistles. Managed code and full sync support - all speculative.
Assuming that the project goes ahead, and that it will not be part of the OEM bundle - at least the ROM bundle then while you're making some very accurate points. They clearly don't apply.
Windows Mobile licensing no longer has keyboard / Screen size restrictions and there is nothing in place to stop the release of a true H/PC with WM2003SE on it.


Humm, not quite that low, not unless you're Dell anyway. Certainly well beneath the 100-200 mark for retail.

There are a lot of users that have h/pc's as a stand-alone. I for one however do not wish to see the devices become purely stand alone, I need that PIM syncronisation - continued exchange sync would be nice too. That has been a downfall of CE 4.

Yeah, quite sad. Palm is kinda loosing it. Anyway I think the HPC factor (10 pts?) is coming back in some devices. I think there is a cell phone that flips open two ways; one way as the normal clamp-shell phone, the other as a HPC factor (10more pts?) messenging tool.

I actually went out and got a PalmModem on eBay for my T3 awhile back. It works fine, the way it was meant to. Unfortunately, the browser (WebPro3.01a) leaves much to be desired. I rotate my T3 to horizontal mode and hold it like a Nintendo Game&Watch device with my right hand free to click on links. But the small screen just dun cut it.

Is PalmOne still having focus groups? Maybe someone should throw them the idea. They are not ambitious enough, or daring for that matter. Instead of fighting on the PDA front with M$ and the others, Palm should bring the fight to the desktop with a HPC factor (Need I repeat? ) device. That should make Billg *shiver* in his pants!

Did I just loose 20 pts again? A HPC fan plotting against M$?? hehehe

Snappy!, are you mocking me?

You can plot against Microsoft if you like. So long as it doesn't spell the demise of my site

Help!!! ....

There was also an article about why PCs made it and Apple/Linux did (has?) not. While some may not agree, PCs are driven a lot by gamers.

Drawing a parallel (if that is possible), maybe is HPC factor devices have better CPU/graphics *and* games, would that cut the deal?

With the VGA out available for MP series, can it double up as a soup-up Playstation?