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Crazy idea: CE 4.2 on a Jornada 728?

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Jax184 Page Icon Posted 2006-11-09 3:32 AM
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The RAM uses a small fraction of the Jornada's total power consumption. Half the power goes to running the screen, and of the remaining half, the majority of it goes to things like the CPU. The added RAM would be in the form of higher capacity chips, not more, so the overall increase would be immesurably small.
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ntware Page Icon Posted 2006-11-10 9:33 PM
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humm...yeah, you are right in some point of view...but I wasn't talking about energy consumption when you are using the device, but when it's on the "sleeping mode". Think about that: When you have your WindowsCE runing low on batteries, at some point it pops up a dialog that says something like, "You're running out of power, you should stop now." If you keep using it, it'll come back a little later with a more dire warning saying something to the effect of, "You'd better save your data now, because you're on the verge of losing it." Then, a bit after that it comes on and says, "That's it, I'm shutting you down." At that point, you can't use the device again until you plug it in. Great! How much battery charge do you think you have then? 5% maybe? Well, try half!! When the system shut you down because your batteries were "critically low," they were still 1/4 to 1/2 full. That's because of "the 72 hour rule." This means that when the system decides that the batteries were "critically low," they had to still have enough power to keep the RAM charged for 72 hours. The idea there was that you could discover that you were out of power on Friday on the way home and you'd still have your data on Monday when you got back to your charger. So I invite you guys to do the math: A typical battery holds 1000mAh of charge. I think that the Jornada's one hold something about 1600mAh. 128M of RAM takes about 500mAh to stay resident for 72 hours. 64M takes about 250, and so 32M takes 125mAh. CONCLUSION: As much RAM you have, sooner your device will be shut down by the OS acusing low battery because of the 72h stupid rule thing.
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Jax184 Page Icon Posted 2006-11-10 9:51 PM
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The Jornada doesn't know how much power the RAM is using. It'll shut itsself down when it reaches a battery percentage that was programmed into the ROM at the factory. So it would shut down at about the same time with 64 or 128, but not last as long before it goes completly dead.

You've already lost more battery life to old cells than you would to more RAM. Rebuilding the battery for $30 or so would give you tons more than you had new with 64.

In all honesty though, with the constant improvements in RAM chips, I'd be surprised if 128 megs of modern RAM would use twice the power that 64 from 4 years ago did. And even if it did, I'm never away from an AC adapter for 72 hours.
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oflash Page Icon Posted 2006-11-10 10:05 PM
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Okay, lads, as I figure it, the single back up battery alone has enough electrons to run the unit at full operating capacity for a solid half hour. So assuming that the main battery completely depleted, unlikely in the self induced "I'm about to die" mode. The backup battery has the equivalent of 7% of the main battery's power. I think it's a non issue, but for the sake of argument, lets say the device, we'll call it the Walkabout, will run 64 megs, shall we. That way we can move along and get back to task.

I sent mark an email:

Quote

Hello Mark,
. . . the boards at HPCFactor.com. One of the many projects that is going on in the WinCE communities involves [possibly] upgrading the current version of Windows CE on the Jornada 7xx's. You've probably had other people mention this to you, but the flashable ROM boards you proposed about two years ago would be an excellent starting point for the lot of us in addition to the clear uses in the Linux communities. I just wanted to express interest and support the idea,
Many thanks,
EJ


to which he replied:

Quote

I would be happy to work with the HPCFactor.com community to build something that both communities could use. What would help me out a lot in this process would be for someone in the HPCFactor.com community to coordinate gathering certain engineering information (or at least places to go to get that info) for me. Specific information I would need is:

1. How big is the version of WinCE that would run?

2. How much RAM does that version of WinCE need to run
effectively on the Jornada 7xx series?

3. Where can I get WinCE so that it can be flashed
onto the Flashboard?

4. (This one may not be answerable just yet) Could
that version of WinCE be booted from a different
bootloader? (The idea being that UBoot/RedBoot/etc., could
load the OS from a CF card.)

Thoughts? Ideas?

Regards,
-Mark Gollahon


He raises some good, simple starting questions, and reaffirms the idea of booting from a CF card. Everyone should take a look at the open-source bootloaders he mentions. They seem to be solidly founded.

Can we come to some consensus answers for him?
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ntware Page Icon Posted 2006-11-10 10:18 PM
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yes..I think that is better we try to discuss a way to get bootloader working than if it's good or not to put 128MB on the jornada...
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Pete P. Page Icon Posted 2006-11-11 2:46 PM
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I think the RAM is on the daughterboard as well, right? If you are rewriting the ROM it should not be hard to add RAM :-P
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-11-11 8:35 PM
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ntware - 2006-11-11 3:33 AM

humm...yeah, you are right in some point of view...but I wasn't talking about energy consumption when you are using the device, but when it's on the "sleeping mode". Think about that: When you have your WindowsCE runing low on batteries, at some point it pops up a dialog that says something like, "You're running out of power, you should stop now." If you keep using it, it'll come back a little later with a more dire warning saying something to the effect of, "You'd better save your data now, because you're on the verge of losing it." Then, a bit after that it comes on and says, "That's it, I'm shutting you down." At that point, you can't use the device again until you plug it in. Great! How much battery charge do you think you have then? 5% maybe? Well, try half!! When the system shut you down because your batteries were "critically low," they were still 1/4 to 1/2 full. That's because of "the 72 hour rule." This means that when the system decides that the batteries were "critically low," they had to still have enough power to keep the RAM charged for 72 hours. The idea there was that you could discover that you were out of power on Friday on the way home and you'd still have your data on Monday when you got back to your charger. So I invite you guys to do the math: A typical battery holds 1000mAh of charge. I think that the Jornada's one hold something about 1600mAh. 128M of RAM takes about 500mAh to stay resident for 72 hours. 64M takes about 250, and so 32M takes 125mAh. CONCLUSION: As much RAM you have, sooner your device will be shut down by the OS acusing low battery because of the 72h stupid rule thing.


oh you believe that ms crap? that's an outright lie. i have 128mb devices and they don't have a problem with this. and, hpc's totally ignore the 72 hour bullshit, that's available only on pocketpc's and you can disable it even there.

the jornada ignores this bs and will simply discharge the battery down to 6volts where the cells get already empty.

fyi, a jornada 720 (32mb) will last a full day on a backup battery without any main battery
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-11-11 8:40 PM
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oflash - 2006-11-11 4:05 AM

Okay, lads, as I figure it, the single back up battery alone has enough electrons to run the unit at full operating capacity for a solid half hour. So assuming that the main battery completely depleted, unlikely in the self induced "I'm about to die" mode. The backup battery has the equivalent of 7% of the main battery's power. I think it's a non issue, but for the sake of argument, lets say the device, we'll call it the Walkabout, will run 64 megs, shall we. That way we can move along and get back to task.

I sent mark an email:

Quote

Hello Mark,
. . . the boards at HPCFactor.com. One of the many projects that is going on in the WinCE communities involves [possibly] upgrading the current version of Windows CE on the Jornada 7xx's. You've probably had other people mention this to you, but the flashable ROM boards you proposed about two years ago would be an excellent starting point for the lot of us in addition to the clear uses in the Linux communities. I just wanted to express interest and support the idea,
Many thanks,
EJ


to which he replied:

Quote

I would be happy to work with the HPCFactor.com community to build something that both communities could use. What would help me out a lot in this process would be for someone in the HPCFactor.com community to coordinate gathering certain engineering information (or at least places to go to get that info) for me. Specific information I would need is:

1. How big is the version of WinCE that would run?

2. How much RAM does that version of WinCE need to run
effectively on the Jornada 7xx series?

3. Where can I get WinCE so that it can be flashed
onto the Flashboard?

4. (This one may not be answerable just yet) Could
that version of WinCE be booted from a different
bootloader? (The idea being that UBoot/RedBoot/etc., could
load the OS from a CF card.)

Thoughts? Ideas?

Regards,
-Mark Gollahon


He raises some good, simple starting questions, and reaffirms the idea of booting from a CF card. Everyone should take a look at the open-source bootloaders he mentions. They seem to be solidly founded.

Can we come to some consensus answers for him?




oflash, where did you get the idea that the backup battery can run the whole unit ??? it is impossible sadly.

to the questions..

1. probably 32mb, unless we want to include lots of custom apps
2. if the flash is NOR flash then 32mb ram is enough, if it is not (or it boots off a CF) you'd better get 64mb. it may still work with 32mb though.
3. i'm sure that's possible somehow as a start we can flash a bootloader that can boot off CF so we don't need to reflash so many times when developing the OS.
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oflash Page Icon Posted 2006-11-11 9:13 PM
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cmonex, I didn't mean that the unit can run off the backup battery, I was just using the capacity for illustrative purposes.

BTW, has anyone ever struck up a way to pull the entire ROM image off a Jornada? Howabout original HP specs, drivers and what have you? If we are to accomplish such a thing, we need focus and solutions.

Any progressive ideas, anyone?

Edited by oflash 2006-11-11 9:14 PM
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Jax184 Page Icon Posted 2006-11-11 11:18 PM
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We already have a dump of the ROM.
www.jax184.com/projects/jornada/rom%20dump/

Edited by Jax184 2006-11-11 11:18 PM
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-11-11 11:25 PM
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oflash - 2006-11-12 3:13 AM

cmonex, I didn't mean that the unit can run off the backup battery, I was just using the capacity for illustrative purposes.

BTW, has anyone ever struck up a way to pull the entire ROM image off a Jornada? Howabout original HP specs, drivers and what have you? If we are to accomplish such a thing, we need focus and solutions.

Any progressive ideas, anyone?


the rom dumps wont do any good. err, i mean it isn't just copy a file out of the extracted rom and use it - it needs tweaking

we have the hw specs directly from hp. if someone doesn't know the link is here: http://izemize.fw.hu/jornada720.txt

we don't need "focus and solutions", we need to start doing drivers yes hardcore low level programming sorry



edit: ok sorry for being so negative today

Edited by cmonex 2006-11-11 11:28 PM
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ntware Page Icon Posted 2006-11-13 9:24 AM
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damn! do we really need drivers to start?? CE4.2 don't have any "gereric type" drivers to just start, like linux and other OSes have? For sure will be veeery hard to make drivers for CE4.2. Could we use the drivers from CE3.0 in CE4.2?? Are they compatible (as they runs in same processor and CE4.2 is backwards-compatible in software)??
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Jax184 Page Icon Posted 2006-11-13 9:43 AM
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CE 4 handles a lot of things differently than CE 3. It's not just a matter of dropping files from one into the other.
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ntware Page Icon Posted 2006-11-13 9:57 AM
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hmm....but it cannot work just "out of the box" with some generic drivers?
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macmee Page Icon Posted 2006-11-17 11:19 AM
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someone should get a device and just for fun load all the 4.2 files on it without doing anything else and see what happens
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