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Crazy idea: CE 4.2 on a Jornada 728?

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CE Geek Page Icon Posted 2006-11-17 2:43 PM
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We already know the answer to that: they simply won't run. If you check each one with Executability Check, the same message will appear: "[filename] requires OS version 4.2. The OS of this machine is 3.0." Now, if you then use "Rewrite Version" and change from 4.2 to 3.0, some of the files will work. But, as Jax said, it's not that simple.
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mik82 Page Icon Posted 2006-12-17 5:54 AM
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I was thinking about the flash boards and surely the best method is to simply have a bootloader loading the OS off a CF card. That way the OS can be changed easily. Add in 128Mb of RAM and i'd definitely buy one.. I'm not so sure about CE 4.2. Yeah it looks like a good OS to run but with all the effort that would need to go into making drivers is there really enough will in the community to make it happen?
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-12-17 8:49 AM
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mik82, what OS would you like then?
as for me, there is enough will. Antipasta won't have time until january. we're waiting for some tools from someone else that might speed up this development.
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mik82 Page Icon Posted 2006-12-17 10:32 AM
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Well to be honest I'd love to be able to dual boot CE 4.2 and linux. I was just thinking there's a lot of effort involved in getting 4.2 working while linux is apparently nearly there (Though I have yet to try it).

Anyway I'd imagine that the 4.2 build would be quite buggy to start with, hence having a partioned CF card would allow easy frequent updates without flashing. Same for linux.

I'm still deciding on whether to buy a J728 upgrade board.. if this project is actually going to go ahead then I might not.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-12-17 10:50 AM
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yeah first edition would run off CF card, the 728 rom will help with that (more ram), then when flashboards are made it can be flashed in with a new bootloader.

but why would it be buggy? not more buggy than linux hah.
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mik82 Page Icon Posted 2006-12-17 10:52 AM
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Are flashboards actually going to be made?
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-12-17 10:55 AM
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two of my friends in hungary have been trying to look into that.
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svet-am Page Icon Posted 2006-12-18 12:19 AM
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I just stumbled onto the existence of the HP flashboard a few days ago. I found the schematic and gerbers that were done by Geoff at HP. I was already planning on having the PCBs fabbed on my own (I usually use Advanced Circuits in Aurora, Colorado), but if there's going to be a group-buy then count me in!

My goal right now is to get Linux running natively on my J720 without some third-party bootloard through Windows CE. Linux has the tools that will allow me to easily sync my "alternative" email clients like Thunderbird and Evolution as well as provide a "consistent" user experience for me since I use Linux most of the time anyway.

I agree that one of the issues (regardless of target OS) is being able to flash the board on a regular basis so that new revisions of an OS can be tried out. I'm 90% use that Das U-Boot runs on the SA-1110, so I don't see why it cannot be used and then OS operations handed off to either Windows CE or Linux once the processor and peripherals are properly initialized. I've worked with Das U-Boot in other designs at work and it can provide for RS232 UART or network connectivity in order to flash devices in-place.

If in-place flashing is not feasible, an external flasher could probably be easily built that just translates JTAG over to the male version of the Flashboard connector.

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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-12-18 7:19 AM
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wow, thanks for posting
i'm sure in place flashing is feasible, a lot easier and faster than jtag, that's what bootloaders are for in the development status i'm not worried about the bootloader. (the problem here is making the flashboards.) btw, where did you work with Das U-Boot? i think it would be nice to implement a way to get it to flash with keyboard combinations too, but serial cable is ok too.

anyway, about flashboards, if your plan is serious and it works out let us know, there will definitely be a lot of people interested. the linux people too, post on their boards too!
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svet-am Page Icon Posted 2006-12-18 4:11 PM
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cmonex - 2006-12-18 6:19 AM

wow, thanks for posting
i'm sure in place flashing is feasible, a lot easier and faster than jtag, that's what bootloaders are for in the development status i'm not worried about the bootloader. (the problem here is making the flashboards.) btw, where did you work with Das U-Boot? i think it would be nice to implement a way to get it to flash with keyboard combinations too, but serial cable is ok too.

anyway, about flashboards, if your plan is serious and it works out let us know, there will definitely be a lot of people interested. the linux people too, post on their boards too!


I'm a hardware design engineer for a small R&D company in Las Vegas, Nevada. Most recently, I've used U-Boot on designs based around Texas Instruments' DM644x DaVinci IC's because TI uses U-Boot for them. Previously, I had half-heartedly played around with booting various ARM designs with U-Boot.

I'm leaving for a trip the Tuesday after Christmas, so I won't be able to send the PCBs to fab until I return on January 2 (because I dont want them to arrive while I'm out of town). But, I'll keep people abreast of my progress.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-12-18 6:39 PM
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thanks, i hope you can get some results.
about the bootloader, i'm sure you can figure it out easily (i still need to learn some stuff - even though i know what they do and how, i'm still not good at programming). so, could you help us with the bootloader development? if it is dual boot (CE / linux) that'll be very good for everyone. (unless the existing linux one can be modified - if that's easier)
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svet-am Page Icon Posted 2006-12-18 6:59 PM
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cmonex - 2006-12-18 5:39 PM

thanks, i hope you can get some results.
about the bootloader, i'm sure you can figure it out easily (i still need to learn some stuff - even though i know what they do and how, i'm still not good at programming). so, could you help us with the bootloader development? if it is dual boot (CE / linux) that'll be very good for everyone. (unless the existing linux one can be modified - if that's easier)


I'm the opposite of you. I know what they do and how, but I'm a hardware guy, not a high-level software guy (I can hold my own in low-level close to the medal code though).

Dual-Booting should be fairly "trivial". Technically, U-Boot is not a "bootloader" -- it's a "bootstrapper". All a bootstrapper does is power on the CPU and initialize its registers. It then hands off the execution process to another location in memory. It's possible to mimic the way a normal PC boots and use U-Boot as the POST/BIOS code and then hand-off to a second stage bootloader (similar to NTLDR or GRUB or LILO) and allow the second-stage bootloader to do all of the heavy lifting of knowing where on the disk to boot from.


edit--
BTW -- Where is the current bootstrapper located? Is it on the "ROM Card" that the Flash Board replaces? If that's the case, then that makes life a lot easier. Else, we need to figure out a way to work around the onboard bootstrap process.

Edited by svet-am 2006-12-18 7:01 PM
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-12-18 10:42 PM
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you're not so much the opposite me as you'd think.. i'm not for high-level software either. obviously dualbooting can be done but as i said i don't know enough programming to actually do it. so i hope you can have time to do it

i'm not sure where it is now. i mean it sounded natural that it is on the rom chips (3x8 mb), but who knows. how can that be confirmed? i can see that it is not so much of a separate bootloader (as it doesn't have to do flashing and stuff, just do the resets and start OS launch). does that give hope?
if it helps, do you want a rom dump of the jornada? i guess you might already have it but if not let me know.
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svet-am Page Icon Posted 2006-12-19 12:39 AM
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i spent some time this evening looking over the schematic and datasheets from the design that Geoff Lyon at HP did. I've got a firm understanding of how the flashboard works now -- and it's quite straightforward and gives lots of hope for the future.

First, take a look at the schematic found at (sorry for the hotlinking as I dont have available web space of my own ATM): http://www.handhelds.org/download/projects/jornada/720/j720_flash_card/memcard/Jornada720%20Memory/

Now, I'll walk folks through this.

1) note that the Flash and SDRAM chips are separated into pairs 'A' and 'B'. Pair A is the A-set Flash and SDRAM chip. Pair B is the B-set Flash and SDRAM chip. (so far, so good, so easy)

2) Note the address lines marked as A0..A24 . This is a 25-bit address line is masked to ALL FOUR memory IC's. That is, whenever the address lines are asserted, all four chips 'see' the address being request. However, note that only the Flash chips use all 25-bits of the address. The various ICs are 'separated' via Write-Enable and Read-Enable lines that allow a chip to only react when it is properly 'called upon'. The SDRAM memory IC's use a 12-bit addressing scheme and these 12 bits come from the upper 12 bits of the 25-bit address bus (this is important in a few steps).

3)Next, note that the data lines, marked Dx0..Dx15 (where x can be 'A' or 'B'. This is important because it splits the data lines into a 16-bit 'A' set of data and a 16-bit 'B' set of data. Each IC can only support a 16-bit data bus so two ICs (either two SDRAM or two Flash) are used in tandem at the same time to create a 32-bit wide data bus. This is _exactly_ the same concept as RAID striping in hard disks.

4) So.... when the J720 first boots, it immediately begins reading 32-bit instructions from address 0x000000h (which corresponds to address lines 0-24 on the Flash IC). The code it executes at this time will be things like the bootloader and CPU initialization. Eventually it will run enough code that it'll be started and running and it will then use the upper 12 bits of the address bus to store user data in memory since the operating system fits well within the low-order 13 bits (~8MB) of the address range. (at this point you may be asking 'if the flash chip doesnt _need_ all 24 bit of the address range to run then why are they used?' -- the answer to this has to do with the differences in SDRAM and Flash technologies and is beyond the scope of this brief discussion).

5) Here's where this helps us with running Linux. So, in order to 'flash in place' for the new versions of the bootloader or a new Linux OS, here's what needs to happen. Use a bootloader that has a small overhead (such that it can all be loaded into memory). Boot like normal and then drop into the 'administrative console' running _entirely_ in user memory (the upper 12-bits). This leaves the address lines and the data lines for the Flash chips completely usable. Then allow the user to connect via USB or Modem or RS232 (U-Boot supports this) and re-program the Flash chips while they are installed in the J720 because the address/data lines for the Flash chips are not being used at that moment.

It's late here in Las Vegas and I couldn't sleep because the ideas were running through my head and I wanted to share them with the group. If I've omitted any details or anything is unclear because of my late-night zeal, then let me know and I'll clarify.

This should _drastically_ help out once a user has a Linux-based J720 up and running. However, it still does not solve the problem of the initial programming of the flash chips.

while slow, it should be entirely possible to implement a flashing board using the male molex connector, a PIC-Micro, and a RS232 transceiver. The code is straight-forward -- receiver the data serially and then mux it out to the molex connector inside the PIC-Micro. Again, slow due to the size of the Flash ROM but better than nothing.

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svet-am Page Icon Posted 2006-12-19 12:44 AM
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cmonex - 2006-12-18 9:42 PM

you're not so much the opposite me as you'd think.. i'm not for high-level software either. obviously dualbooting can be done but as i said i don't know enough programming to actually do it. so i hope you can have time to do it

i'm not sure where it is now. i mean it sounded natural that it is on the rom chips (3x8 mb), but who knows. how can that be confirmed? i can see that it is not so much of a separate bootloader (as it doesn't have to do flashing and stuff, just do the resets and start OS launch). does that give hope?
if it helps, do you want a rom dump of the jornada? i guess you might already have it but if not let me know.


I saw a file-by-file ROM dump. Do you have a binary ROM dump (ie, all one file in its native pristine state as it exists inside the J720)? If so, I'd be interested to do an objdump on it.
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