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Review: Ranier Herrler's Mobile Sudoku 2.0 for H/PC

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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2006-08-01 1:53 PM
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Guest, I'm curious. You said the algorhythm is easy to create. What would the algorhythm be in Java? What would it be in C++? EVB? I'd like to give this a try, but the algorhythms are too complex for me to figure out by myself so maybe you might could supply a sample of the needed code in post here that someone could use. How would you go about doing it?

By the way, for the record, my time is as valuable as the next persons. $10 seems awfully cheap when you consider the man hours I might spend doing it myself, working out the bugs...even at minimal wage here in the US, and I doubt there are many who could do all the programming necessary in only 2 hours. I'd rather pay someone else to do the work.

By the way, how about registering and let us know who we are really talking to? Guest is so....so vague. I'd rather call someone by their name, or handle...especially since there are some really stupid posts on this forum board with the author name of Guest...and I know you wouldn't want to be confused with them.

Rich

Edited by Rich Hawley 2006-08-01 1:54 PM
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Guest Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 6:43 AM
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Rich Hawley - 2006-08-01 1:53 PM

Guest, I'm curious. You said the algorhythm is easy to create. What would the algorhythm be in Java? What would it be in C++? EVB? I'd like to give this a try, but the algorhythms are too complex for me to figure out by myself so maybe you might could supply a sample of the needed code in post here that someone could use. How would you go about doing it?

By the way, for the record, my time is as valuable as the next persons. $10 seems awfully cheap when you consider the man hours I might spend doing it myself, working out the bugs...even at minimal wage here in the US, and I doubt there are many who could do all the programming necessary in only 2 hours. I'd rather pay someone else to do the work.

By the way, how about registering and let us know who we are really talking to? Guest is so....so vague. I'd rather call someone by their name, or handle...especially since there are some really stupid posts on this forum board with the author name of Guest...and I know you wouldn't want to be confused with them.

Rich


A short presentation of a Sudoku algorithm is here: http://mathsrv.ku-eichstaett.de/MGF/homes/grothmann/java/Sudoku/doc.html.
You could check these open source projects on SF http://sudoku.sourceforge.net/, http://pseudoq.sourceforge.net,
or this forum about Sudoku programming http://www.setbb.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=2&mforum=sudoku.
I am NOT interested in creating a Sudoku solver/generator, I only say that it is easy to write a program for that. This does NOT mean that the algorithm is easy for the average person or that everyone can read the code and understand its inner workings in a snap, but a programmer that wants to write a Sudoku application should be proficient with those things.

As for your second point: the free software and open source movement has shown that you can write code just for the pleasure of that and for the challenge of solving a problem, not just for an economic reward. The internet we use everyday runs on open source code and is more reliable than proprietary software. I don't want to dig into a discussion of that, I don't think it is the proper place here, I only want to point out that the idea of freely sharing code mimics what happens in science where researchers FREELY share their findings with their peers and this has led to the impetuous growth of scientific and technological achievements of our time.
When a scientist feels more than rewarded by letting everyone use his new techniques and does not charge anything for a new PDE solver (or DNA sequencer or whatever else it might be) that took him years to develop, well, charging $10 for a Sudoku game takes a different dimension, IMHO.

Guest is OK. First I don't like to subscribe to public forums, I am already spammed much more than I need. On the other hand, I don't want to create a false identity protecting myself behind a nickname.
Second, skimming through posts here I have built up a mixed feeling. A few people are positive and open minded (you seem to be in the happy few, as your kind and curious reply has shown), but most posters here are so provocative and unfriendly with other people's ideas, they always want to have the last word on every topic. I don't like this attitude, it is the worst thing of the forums here. What has this to do with being a guest or not? With a name one becomes a definite Someone, while a guest identity confuses you among the Many Others (even if they are idiots). I hope you understand.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 8:05 AM
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Guest - 2006-08-02 12:43 PM
Second, skimming through posts here I have built up a mixed feeling. A few people are positive and open minded (you seem to be in the happy few, as your kind and curious reply has shown), but most posters here are so provocative and unfriendly with other people's ideas, they always want to have the last word on every topic. I don't like this attitude, it is the worst thing of the forums here. What has this to do with being a guest or not? With a name one becomes a definite Someone, while a guest identity confuses you among the Many Others (even if they are idiots). I hope you understand.


hi,
i'm sad to hear you feel that way. i don't think there are many provocative posters here, i don't know how long you've been reading this forum / site, maybe you just saw the threads where they seemed to be more active or just a misunderstanding
and one more thing, i don't know how many hpc's you have, but i feel a little disappointed that you didn't find the support, on the forum or in the support section, if you look at this from this view, you could see that the only aim of this site is to help.

Edited by cmonex 2006-08-02 8:08 AM
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Hurricane John Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 8:07 AM
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The bottom line is, if you are not a programmer and you want to run Sudoku software on your HPC (Not PPC or other platforms) then $10 is a bargain compared to nothing. Obviously, no one else is interested in supplying the HPC community with a free alternative to Mobile Sudoku....if they did, believe me this community would be all over it.

It's completely within your right to think that $10 is too much for the software and if you don't want to register on this forum - once again, that's your choice to make.


Edited by Hurricane John 2006-08-02 8:08 AM
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 9:22 AM
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Thanks Guest. I went to the web sites and found all of the approaches to programming different...to say the least. More specifically, they are way over my head. Continuing the search I found very few (none) instances for HPCs, though I imagine a versatile programmer could made the adaptation.

Program for pleasure? Have done that on a basic level...pun intended. But mainly when I was taking various introductory programming classes back in college. Doesn't seem to be enough time these days.

Still think you ought to take on a pseudonym. You don't get spammed from this site as you don't even have to make your email address available to anyone. As far as provocation goes...you know what they say about opinions and what everyone has. I listen to everyone, which goes along with the old adage about a grain of salt.

Rich
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Guest Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 12:37 PM
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Rich Hawley - 2006-08-02 9:22 AM

Thanks Guest. I went to the web sites and found all of the approaches to programming different...to say the least. More specifically, they are way over my head. Continuing the search I found very few (none) instances for HPCs, though I imagine a versatile programmer could made the adaptation.

Program for pleasure? Have done that on a basic level...pun intended. But mainly when I was taking various introductory programming classes back in college. Doesn't seem to be enough time these days.

Still think you ought to take on a pseudonym. You don't get spammed from this site as you don't even have to make your email address available to anyone. As far as provocation goes...you know what they say about opinions and what everyone has. I listen to everyone, which goes along with the old adage about a grain of salt.

Rich


Want more?
Check http://pocketsudoku.sourceforge.net/ and http://ferrao.org/pocketpc/2006/01/free-sudoku-for-pocketpc_21.html.
These are for PPCs and you get the sources, too. They both need .NET 2.0 so I think they cannot be ported easily to HPCs, but the code is there, freely available under the GNU General Public License. I see that there is an older version of Pocket Sudoku running under .NET 1.0, maybe this version can run in an HPC (I don't remember whether .NET 1.0 supports them).

I did not say, and I don't think, that everyone should program for pleasure or freely share his/her work. I only say that the free software model is one of the possible models in this field, with many strong points. One of them is that free/open source software CANNOT contain viruses, spyware, adware, all that crap that plagues closed source programs. Another is that evolves and improves much faster, because everyone can suggest & add patches and new features.
But (for me) the strongest point is another: scientific research is freely shared, and this fact is perceived by the general public to be perfectly legitimate. And people is really upset when they discover that this is not always true (the first examples that come to my mind are research on cloning or GMO).
So, why software development, basically a subset of scientific research (I admit I am a little provocative here) - and in any case something less complicated than scientific research - is perceived as different and it seems strange to share it??? This is something that always puzzles me. Marketing has surely a role for that, but I don't believe it is the only reason.

This discussion started from $10 and now it is getting broader and broader, maybe too broad IMHO.

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Guest Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 1:27 PM
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cmonex - 2006-08-02 8:05 AM

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Guest - 2006-08-02 12:43 PM
Second, skimming through posts here I have built up a mixed feeling. A few people are positive and open minded (you seem to be in the happy few, as your kind and curious reply has shown), but most posters here are so provocative and unfriendly with other people's ideas, they always want to have the last word on every topic. I don't like this attitude, it is the worst thing of the forums here. What has this to do with being a guest or not? With a name one becomes a definite Someone, while a guest identity confuses you among the Many Others (even if they are idiots). I hope you understand.


hi,
i'm sad to hear you feel that way. i don't think there are many provocative posters here, i don't know how long you've been reading this forum / site, maybe you just saw the threads where they seemed to be more active or just a misunderstanding
and one more thing, i don't know how many hpc's you have, but i feel a little disappointed that you didn't find the support, on the forum or in the support section, if you look at this from this view, you could see that the only aim of this site is to help.


No, no. Purely technical support on this site is very good. The site contains excellent material and is surely THE reference site for HPC's. I have found tons of useful info here.
But boy: don't dare to be a newcomer and ask something that has been answered once or twice! You will be flooded by posts reminding you of that. I think it takes more to write "you should always check previous posts before... blah, blah, blah", than to try to quickly answer or point to the correct post/link. Some people here really don't understand that, even if a topic has been already answered, it is not always easy to find it or even to phrase out the request in order to find it. This is even more complicated when english is not your mother-tongue.
I want to point out that I am not one of those newcomers, I don't have anything against anyone here (and I have enough experience to check deeply enough before posting) but I have read several threads here that have contributed to form this opinion.
Another thing you can't do is to deviate from a basic-line-of-thought, even in the off-topic area. I remember reading some really stunning replies, very strong or provocative, with no real reason other than to increase post count.
I might be wrong, but this is exactly the feeling that I have.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 1:53 PM
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Guest - 2006-08-02 6:37 PM

These are for PPCs and you get the sources, too. They both need .NET 2.0 so I think they cannot be ported easily to HPCs, but the code is there, freely available under the GNU General Public License. I see that there is an older version of Pocket Sudoku running under .NET 1.0, maybe this version can run in an HPC (I don't remember whether .NET 1.0 supports them).


.net cf 1.0 doesn't support hpc's officially, but it will work just fine without any hacking. only prerequisite of course is to install it in RAM. (you can relocate it partially to the storage card but now thats a hack involving reg entries etc )


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I did not say, and I don't think, that everyone should program for pleasure or freely share his/her work. I only say that the free software model is one of the possible models in this field, with many strong points. One of them is that free/open source software CANNOT contain viruses, spyware, adware, all that crap that plagues closed source programs. Another is that evolves and improves much faster, because everyone can suggest & add patches and new features.
But (for me) the strongest point is another: scientific research is freely shared, and this fact is perceived by the general public to be perfectly legitimate. And people is really upset when they discover that this is not always true (the first examples that come to my mind are research on cloning or GMO).
So, why software development, basically a subset of scientific research (I admit I am a little provocative here) - and in any case something less complicated than scientific research - is perceived as different and it seems strange to share it??? This is something that always puzzles me. Marketing has surely a role for that, but I don't believe it is the only reason.


good points. my only problems: if the software is open source and free etc etc, probably no one will organize the efforts too efficiently. also the "everyone" who can contribute usually doesn't. i've seen a lot of sourceforge projects that got stuck at alpha phase but maybe it is the same with commercial stuff, we just can't see their alpha's
somehow open source means either of the following two things to me: either it is big bloated and slow, resource hungry, or it is small little efficient but lacks alot of features and has bugs.
of course there are notable exceptions where the developers have been able to organize their efforts and work... one cool example is tcpmp...
but yes it is a good idea to make some knowledge base with lots of shared sources there's a few such things already. you don't have to start from scratch..
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-08-02 2:08 PM
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Guest - 2006-08-02 7:27 PM
No, no. Purely technical support on this site is very good. The site contains excellent material and is surely THE reference site for HPC's. I have found tons of useful info here.
But boy: don't dare to be a newcomer and ask something that has been answered once or twice! You will be flooded by posts reminding you of that. I think it takes more to write "you should always check previous posts before... blah, blah, blah", than to try to quickly answer or point to the correct post/link. Some people here really don't understand that, even if a topic has been already answered, it is not always easy to find it or even to phrase out the request in order to find it. This is even more complicated when english is not your mother-tongue.
I want to point out that I am not one of those newcomers, I don't have anything against anyone here (and I have enough experience to check deeply enough before posting) but I have read several threads here that have contributed to form this opinion.
Another thing you can't do is to deviate from a basic-line-of-thought, even in the off-topic area. I remember reading some really stunning replies, very strong or provocative, with no real reason other than to increase post count.
I might be wrong, but this is exactly the feeling that I have.


you say "purely technical" support? you think the person who wrote most of the support articles and coded this site did it for money? no. he did it because he wanted to help others. and out of love for hpc's. is that just "technical"???

(edit: ok money isn't the best example here but i hope you get the point)

and the forum users who answer newbies, aren't doing it for money either. nope. just try to think of this a little more. we give our precious time to others purely to help. we want others to be as happy with their hpc's as we are.

but you have one very good point! i've always disagreed with the way some of the newbies gets flooded if they ask something already answered 1000 times. i think it is perfectly understandable if a computer illiterate newbie does ask very basic things.
also i love off topics
on the other hand, please try to think the following over:
personally i think the best help (!) then is to point them to the support section, if the issue is already covered there. this is the most efficient kind of help that can be given.
if it isn't covered there, then i try to give them keywords for search on the forum as long as it's been covered on the forum. i can't search instead of them, and i can't remember links off the top of my head, sorry for that. we're all grown ups, aren't we? i believe that if we show people what to search for or that search is possible to do at all (i.e. there's such an option on this forum), they are able to accomplish it. (but if someone can't, of course they should receive more specific help.)

oh and post count... who cares about it? i have no idea who has how many posts, including myself. can someone explain why someone else would care about this? thanks.

Edited by cmonex 2006-08-02 2:15 PM
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BrianD
BrianD Page Icon Posted 2006-08-03 11:57 AM
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Wow! I leave this site for a few days and when I come back there is such an interesting discussion! Hope nobody bothers if I express my opinions.

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Guest -
... the free software model is one of the possible models in this field, with many strong points. One of them is that free/open source software CANNOT contain viruses, spyware, adware, all that crap that plagues closed source programs. Another is that evolves and improves much faster, because everyone can suggest & add patches and new features.
But (for me) the strongest point is another: scientific research is freely shared, and this fact is perceived by the general public to be perfectly legitimate. And people is really upset when they discover that this is not always true (the first examples that come to my mind are research on cloning or GMO).
So, why software development, basically a subset of scientific research (I admit I am a little provocative here) - and in any case something less complicated than scientific research - is perceived as different and it seems strange to share it??? This is something that always puzzles me. Marketing has surely a role for that, but I don't believe it is the only reason.


Guest, I agree with you almost completely. To me, marketing has a strongest effect on people's perceptions, but this is surely only a minor point of your discussion.

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cmonex - 2006-08-02 7:53 PM
good points. my only problems: if the software is open source and free etc etc, probably no one will organize the efforts too efficiently.
also the "everyone" who can contribute usually doesn't. i've seen a lot of sourceforge projects that got stuck at alpha phase but maybe it is the same with commercial stuff, we just can't see their alpha's
somehow open source means either of the following two things to me: either it is big bloated and slow, resource hungry, or it is small little efficient but lacks alot of features and has bugs.
of course there are notable exceptions where the developers have been able to organize their efforts and work... one cool example is tcpmp...


cmonex! I cannot believe you wrote this!

"no one will organize the efforts too efficiently": What about Apache, Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird, OpenOffice? MySQL? gcc and its related tools and compilers? Emacs? Linux or the *BSD distributions? They ARE **big** projects and they ARE very well organized, even if there is no CEO but a bunch of competent people sharing their knowledge.

"Sourceforge": a lot of projects die on SF, it is true, but many are very good or even excellent. SF is like a pool of evolving organisms: many die or stick losing their initial drive, but a few evolve fast reaching forms that could not be predicted from the beginning.

"open source == (bloated && slow && resource hungry) || (lacking features && buggy)": I respect your opinion. But I must add that this description has always been attributed to commercial software, and mainly to Windows and related applications (MS Office at the top of the list). It is years that reviewers say that.
I am really curious to understand why do you attribute these characteristics to OS software.

Edited by BrianD 2006-08-03 12:14 PM
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-08-03 12:12 PM
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hi BrianD

hope i didn't hurt your (or anyone's feelings).

why do i think so?
firefox is a very good example of bloated opensource. same for openoffice.
linux is buggy and unfinished, also not particularly lean code. i don't know about bsd, or about apache, but it could be a good example like tcpmp hope you saw my line where i mentioned there are exceptions.

all in all i just feel commercial software is more organized. this is my own impression, and i'm not an expert on software or anything.
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BrianD Page Icon Posted 2006-08-03 12:50 PM
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cmonex - 2006-08-03 6:12 PM
hope i didn't hurt your (or anyone's feelings).


cmonex, you are always kidding...

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why do i think so?
firefox is a very good example of bloated opensource. same for openoffice.
linux is buggy and unfinished, also not particularly lean code. i don't know about bsd, or about apache, but it could be a good example like tcpmp hope you saw my line where i mentioned there are exceptions.


Firefox and OpenOffice were some examples of **big** and **well organized** open source projects.

OO might be bloated (I admit I don't use OO or any Office application much), but I guess this comes from an original sin: to try to write a software package with the same functionalities of MS Office. And, since MS Office IS bloated software, then also OO becomes bloated. Because THIS is what people want: a big BIG piece of crap they'll **never** use fully.

I admit I love Firefox, several extensions have become necessary for my daily work (ScrapBook above all). It IS bloated, and slow to launch, but when loaded into memory it runs quite well, and it is often faster than Safari on OS X, in my opinion.

Linux. An OS in never "finished" and will always have "bugs". The important thing is to correct those bugs fast. No other OS project has its development cycle. And Linux is something that will be studied for years, a worldwide collaborative effort that no one could have thought possible before actually seeing it happening.

Apache runs 2/3 of internet sites (reference: NetCraft). No other comment is necessary.

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all in all i just feel commercial software is more organized. this is my own impression, and i'm not an expert on software or anything.


Not true. You ARE a reference about these small machines with funny tiny keyboards
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-08-03 5:37 PM
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hi BrianD

my personal opinion about those two (ff, oo) is that their code could improve no i'm not a programmer but... i'm a user who knows what's better for him/her than the programmers for example in the case of ff, i'd like it to launch fast (compare to IE or opera), and would like a fast gui as well (sluggish compared to IE or opera). rendering speed is at least no worse (and no better) than the other browsers. it renders stuff as good as opera but worse than IE (obviously). so that's nice at least. oo, lets not even mention it. it is not compatible enough... and the resource consuming, well.. word is not a good example for that.. i think word eats less
no i don't want a big piece of crap ... maybe i'm "different" ... lol

linux: of course an OS is never finished but... there are levels of completeness

thanks for your final compliment

Edited by cmonex 2006-08-03 5:38 PM
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BrianD Page Icon Posted 2006-08-04 9:44 AM
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cmonex - 2006-08-03 11:37 PM
my personal opinion about those two (ff, oo) is that their code could improve
...
oo, lets not even mention it. it is not compatible enough... and the resource consuming, well.. word is not a good example for that.. i think word eats less


Sure. There is much room for improvement. And it does occur steadily.

One of the things I forgot to mention about Firefox is that it runs on the three main platforms (Linux, Mac OS X and Windows, in strict alphabetical order ). I have the same interface across all the platforms I use, the same extensions, I can share bookmarks among them without a hitch. For me, all these things far surpass its shortcomings (what does not have them?) Another must is tabbed browsing, it changes completely your surfing experience if you are accustomed to IE.

Compatibility in OO. Believe me, it has improved **very** much in the last years. I always use some old Excel worksheets I made same years ago with several sheets containing either data & formulas or plots as a compatibility test for OO (or other spreadsheet applications). Well, a couple of years ago OO could read and render the data sheets quite well but there was no way to make it show the plots. Now the plots are there, are slightly uglier than Excel's, but now they are there, close enough to the original.
Another thing to say is that lack of compatibility is now OO's developer staff fault, rather mostly Microsoft's. If they keep the details of the file formats hidden, or if they don't use open file formats, the only thing that can be done is to reverse-engineer them, something that can always be done but it is slow (and using closed file formats is a very bad thing for end-users, because they lose control of **their** own files and will never be use to be able to access them in the future).

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no i don't want a big piece of crap ... maybe i'm "different" ... lol


I don't know.
But surely we have different ideas about what crap is...

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linux: of course an OS is never finished but... there are levels of completeness


I don't understand what you want to say here. Linux is not ready for the desktop, at least for everyone's desktop, but it is not the hacker's toy of some years ago.
Now you can throw a CD of the best distributions in a PC and even in a notebook, and install Linux on them with less hassle than with Windows.
In the last year I have owned two different notebooks, one from Asus and one from Sony, and I have been able to install both SuSE and Ubuntu on them without any problems. Everything has worked out of the box. And a notebook is an hard test-bed.

What does "completeness" mean for you??? Linux works on most computers, is much stabler than Windows, has less security concerns than Windows (well, THAT is easy!). Linux lets you chose between two different desktop managers, they are heavy, true, but not heavier than XP's. If you want, you can install something lighter (Window Maker, Xfce, Motif,... or, if you like to suffer, even twm) to handle your GUI, still letting you use software made for KDE or Gnome (or Motif, or...) provided you have the right libraries installed.
You can have a textual interface to get your job done faster, if you so like.
In a few words: you have choices, far more choices than with any other OS. The OS works well, it is rock-solid, most hardware supports it now. Why is it incomplete for you?
If you wish, I would be pleased to send you a copy of the latest Ubuntu install/live CD. I have just handed a copy of it to a non-tech colleague, who seems really excited about it.

If for "completeness" you mean "lack of software", in Debian you have to choose among ~19.000 packages, much more than everyone can handle. Many are good, many average, many bad, but you have an enormous choice, that I think fits the computing needs of everyone. I love Mac OS X and I mostly use it now, but I DO prefer to install packages in Linux. It is a snap, above all if you use a debian-based distribution, far easier than even with Mac OS X (above all because upgrades are handled automatically).

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thanks for your final compliment


It is not a compliment. It is the truth
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-08-04 12:23 PM
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hey.

yes i'm sure improvement does happen, as with every software (that doesn't get abandoned, of course). that's a good thing.

about firefox.. i just can't stand its problems (the ones i mentioned), i check the latest version periodically and no improvement in this area (ok the last try was a while ago). tabbed browsing, i get that with opera, which i'm using to post now.
have been using opera for 5 years now..

OO: no, sorry it is not compatible enough for me. just an example, last year i made a little doc with some pics for a psychology test i had to carry out for uni. OO failed the compatibility test there, it was very frustrating. there was nothing special about that document really. IMO. YMMV
why would i lose my own files? never lost any.. not sure i understood this part

yes our ideas about crap (ok maybe this is a strong expression) is different because our personal needs and requirements are different. this is natural and normal, i don't think this is a problem.

correct, linux is not ready for the desktop. this is what i meant about completeness. thanks for the ubuntu offer , but i already have an ubuntu cd somewhere, though didn't get around to try it. i did try live cd's, could never setup lan (wow that setup interface wasn't user friendly in the least), could never get it to read/write to a cf card in a usb reader, i think that's where i gave up last year. i'll have to figure it out though, as i want to try linux on the J728 yeah why not? it must be fun to try another OS on the J728. also don't forget i have a zaurus ....CE is still better.
not sure if i would want to install GUIs on my PC in xp i just click a few times to turn the crap off to get a faster GUI. and i don't want to install libraries. why can't the GUIs be compatible with each other? very annoying.
no i didn't mean lack of software by completeness, but this is another valid concern for me, even though 19,000 sounds nice it is quality for me not quantity that matters.

all in all, i wouldn't use linux on my PC instead of XP. nor on my main hpc's, but i do have a zaurus and want to try linux on the J728/J680. i don't think it would replace CE for me, but i'm curious to see how it works on the jornadas..

you can see we think entirely differently about this topic (because our personal requirements differ), but that's really not a problem for me, hope you agree

anyway we should finish this offtopic here (sorry to everyone), maybe open a new thread in off topic?
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