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Netfront Application Hacking Cease and Desist Order

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Leonard_Caplan Page Icon Posted 2007-10-22 4:32 PM
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takwu - 2007-10-22 5:03 AM

Unfortunately, a contract can be deemed illegal if it contradicts with the law. That's why I treat it seriously.


I would be flabergasted if someone could point me to any court decision anywhere in the world where a EULA was ruled to be in violation of any law.

This thread just keeps on going like a twitching chicken with it's head cut off It's dead but it keeps moving.

Len



Edited by Leonard_Caplan 2007-10-22 4:34 PM
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2007-10-22 10:55 PM
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takwu - 2007-10-22 11:03 AM

Cmonex, no I would not agree that license holders be given the right to modify the software, regardless of purpose. Such a right would be a violation of copyright, quite simply.


you are contradicting your earlier post by saying "regardless of purpose"........

originally you said

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Simply ask these questions: Did the reasoning behind that particular part of the law, at least in spirit, include modification of software in order to make it work on an unsupported computer platform? If so, would you agree with that reasoning in the first place? I.e. should any software license holder have the right to modify the software, for the purpose of using it on another platform?




Len: i remember reading that EULA's cannot override the laws in some countries, instead, those override the EULA but cannot show you an example for that now (for a court decision). i never dived in this subject before (not that i do it too much now )

Edited by cmonex 2007-10-22 10:57 PM
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Leonard_Caplan Page Icon Posted 2007-10-24 6:37 AM
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cmonex - 2007-10-22 10:55 PM

Len: i remember reading that EULA's cannot override the laws in some countries, instead, those override the EULA but cannot show you an example for that now (for a court decision). i never dived in this subject before (not that i do it too much now )
This thread has gotten so crazy, it is now confusing.

When talking about the "law" there are two seperate issues:

The first is contract law. This is what concernes EULAs. It is a civil matter, and has to do with an agreement between two parties. If a Contract (EULA) is broken, or a a result of the contract being not kept, the remedy would be in civil court and could either be a Cease and Desist Order by the court, financial damages ruled, or both. In any case it has nothing to do with breaking laws, but only breaking a contract. If there was something in a contract or EULA that is in violation of a law, then there is a possibility that the contract could be voided. Almost any contracts I have ever seen, and this includes EULAs have a statement as part of the contract that if a provision of the contract is deemed to be illegal, that only that provision would be void, and not the entire contract.

The second kind of issue, which would not have anything to do with an individual violating a EULA by modification would be one of the laws in many countries concerning the protection of intellectual property. This in reality is to protect the illegal sale of protected goods or ideas ...ex: pirating CDs and software. These laws are usually filed in Criminal Court, not Cilvil Court, although the penalties for conviction can also be filed in Cival Court for damages after a conviction. The breaking of these laws can result in jail time, fines, and/or financial restitution both compensitory and punitive. These laws have allso been deemed to cover the illegal downloading and/or sharing of copyrighted music. Here the punishment can be either jail or financial restitution, or both.

The bottom line is the the breaking of EULAs is contract law, and has little to do with the breaking of local laws, with the ultimate rmemedy being financial.

What complicates all of this is that the laws in differents countries are different, as is the court system. When it comes to Copyright Law, either contractual or Intellectual, there are treaties between most civilised countries that allows a violated person or company to persue legal action in the jusisdiction of another country when it comes to athis kind of violation.

Len

Edited by Leonard_Caplan 2007-10-24 6:46 AM
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michelbel Page Icon Posted 2007-11-26 6:49 PM
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cmonex - 2007-10-22 4:55 AM

Len: i remember reading that EULA's cannot override the laws in some countries, instead, those override the EULA but cannot show you an example for that now (for a court decision). i never dived in this subject before (not that i do it too much now )

A good example is 'You can not sell this software': In some countries you own the rights to the software and the the tying to a computer system is void.
In the Netherlands you can sell OEM software provided you supply 'computer' hardware with it - any broken mouse will do. Fitness for purpose is not required AFAIK.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2007-11-28 8:16 AM
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hehehe that's funny.
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macmee Page Icon Posted 2007-12-12 8:16 PM
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CE Geek - 2007-06-29 7:14 PM

I trust the Netfront folks have notified Len Caplan as well.


I've been inactive for ages now, and this is old stuff, but I just have to say I laughed out loud when I read that .
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Maetrix66 Page Icon Posted 2008-02-28 5:54 PM
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I guess the crux of this 9 page thread is that

1. NetFront can enforce thier EULA in the fashion that they have.
2. That it is a far cry from being fair or wise.
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airhook Page Icon Posted 2008-02-28 6:59 PM
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S**T happens!
However if you're using a 900c with Cmonex Rom V2 this is academic - no need to "hack" Netfont applications, they run " out of the box" on CE4.2.
Even the latest NF 3.5, with minor quirks
Might help if you included your HPC devices & location in your Profile.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2008-02-28 9:58 PM
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well actually i can do it for hpc2000 devices too, the ones that have flashrom.. to have netfront (up to 3.3) running out of the box

beyond that, there will be isotherm's neat software.

Edited by cmonex 2008-02-28 9:58 PM
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takwu Page Icon Posted 2008-03-01 12:52 AM
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Wow this thread is back! haha maybe not.

Altho... I kinda missed that last bit where cmonex tried to claim that I was incorrect again (or contradicting). Well it has nothing to do with the subject (which is dead anyway), but it's not "contradicting" when you say "you shouldn't do that for this purpose" and then later say "well actually you shouldn't do that for any purpose." That's call generalizing, not contradicting

Yeah sometimes what I write is so logical I can't even find any flaw myself

BTW what Maetrix66 said is a bit misleading in my opinion. Point 1 is objective and correct; point 2 however is subjective, and does not represent the opinion of everyone. I have always supported the decision by the publisher, and have given detailed reasons why.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2008-03-01 1:00 AM
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i liked matrix66's opinion though very nicely done in a concise way
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joval Page Icon Posted 2008-03-16 7:24 PM
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Caveman is back!

Len...are those twitching chickens...er...a...pecking away...at you again? Birds of a feather...

CaveMan has had time to look into the digital millenium copyright act...and its meaning and penalties...as well as the current status of Eula agreements...in addition he discussed the matter of the cease and desist order with a prominent (open source) software attorney.

The attorney said why do the web site owners /webmasters want the responsibility of being a watchdog for every conceivable permutation of eula /dmca violation that some delusional paranoid software company/attorney sees in every or any post? They, as webmasters are protected from violations of copyrighted material by law...provided they have a mechanism whereby the party that owns said property can notify them of the infrigement and have it removed. This means the owner of the software...has the responsibility to police the "suspect" website and report said infrigements of copyright to webmaster. You tube would be in dire straights otherwise. This would be the appropriate way to respond to a cease and desist threat. Far better than (Len's) twitching chicken webmaster approach...censoring every post mentioning someone's software...so says the Caveman.

And, Len, contract law is dependent on mutual agreement and acceptance of terms...perhaps you can tell us how it is that someone opening a shrink wrap package can give acceptance to terms that are virtually unknown to them as a contracting party. It is only a matter of time, IMHO, before Eula law undergoes major revisions favoring the consumer...and software companies will bear considerable heat for poorly written or over-extended interpretations of their rights.

Consider this, Len the Almighty, I do not own a copy of NitFront Browser...thus I am not party to any contractual agreement with them. If I decide to place a post on a website as to how one might hack a program such as NitFront Booser...say run executability check on it and make a version change, or change a registry setting, or...shame, shame...add a few hacked dlls...CLEARLY...I have NOT violated any Eulas nor Dmca...and my post would be legal and safe and defensible. I shouldn't be harrassed by the webmaster...for discussing generic alterations to a program that I don't even have any legal contractual obligation to...and our twitching chicken (Len's words) webmaster wouldn't have to stay up all night worrying and pulling out hair for fear that the Axis powers are about to land stormtroopers in the backyard and hack them to pizzas (the Nanking thing...some memories are slow to fade).

Dmca was originally intended for movie/music industry CD/dvd protection...but applies to software by default...even email posts have strict copyrights. Problem is...to help collect damages against misuse of or pirating of intelllectual property...the owner is expected to make an effort to protect his rights...failure to do so can be interpreted as relinquishishing either rights of ownership or right to damages. So, in part, a cease and desist order from Nitfraud Booser attorneys...is in part, an attempt to draw a line in the sand as to their rights...to show they still claim ownership rights. That the hpc webmasters are willing to prostitute themselves (that Nanking thing again)...in hopes of saving their necks (or their heads as history tells it)...by allowing no discussion of NitWik Brawlser alterations in any shape, form, derivatives...hypothetical, generic, or completely imaginary (like put the software CD in the oven at 500 degrees for an hour)...IMHO...is WRONG! Stepping on the Caveman's toes! but on the bright side...Caveman says it IS just the finest chicken twitching he's seen in a long, long time...and he's been around for ages. Maybe the Dodo is not quite extinct...

Could just be that bird flu (software) virus...shucks...infecting the whole darned web site...kinda makes a fella wanta stay away...

Caveman...he jest ain't no darm twitchin' chicken...won't "cave in" to them chicken twitching fears...just keeps wondering if Len and the Chicken Twitchers are ever gonna evolve...


Joval
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takwu Page Icon Posted 2008-03-17 3:42 AM
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"Twitching chicken" was referring to the behavior of the thread itself, i.e. how the topics jump back and forth and everywhere, and had nothing to do with the handling of the issue in question. It's amazing how a simple phrase get taken so very far out of context and get misused over and over so many times in an attempt to attack at least two parties.

To summarize joval:
- It's wrong to discourage providing information that is solely used to break an agreement, because the provider of that information is not in that agreement.
- It is stepping on person A's toes to not allow him to provide this information on a website privately owned by person B.

In case my words get taken out of context too, I think both of those ideas are rediculouly wrong.

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This means the owner of the software...has the responsibility to police the "suspect" website and report said infrigements of copyright to webmaster.

That is precisely what Netfront's owner has done. They observed the website and reported infrigements of copyright to webmaster.

But that doesn't mean the webmaster should not do anything to prevent this, or that they should not remove anything that hasn't been reported as illegal. YouTube constantly removes whatever content that they do not approve, without having to prove the content is illegal, or in any way explain themselves about the removal to any of the users of the website. Why is this website being attacked for choosing what contents it allows to be posted?

I dare to repeat: get your own website and publish whatever you want on it. Stop whinning.
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