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Factorite (Elite) Posts: | 134 |
Location: | Cracow, Poland | Status: | |
| OK, question is tricky, as I know how. I just don't know what kind of cells do I need to do it  Anyone? Edited by stasheck 2005-06-13 3:33 AM
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H/PC Sensei Posts: | 1,330 |
Location: | North of England | Status: | |
| First off, the obligatory warning.
Messing with NiCds etc is dangerous. Get it wrong, and it will hurt you. Batteries and heat do not good bedfellows make, so take care if you're soldering - get cells with presoldered tabs if you can. They can and do explode if you do silly things with them.
The best place I've found for supplying cells to rebuild various batteries is sabah oceanic - http://www.sabahoceanic.com/
They normally will have the cells that you need, normally with presoldered tabs as appropriate. Sorry I can't be more specific on what you'll need, but crack open the battery pack (you know what you're doing ) and see what you need.
Cheers,
Nick.
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Administrator H/PC Oracle Posts: | 18,004 |
Location: | United Kingdom | Status: | |
| Just observation here; pedantic as I am.
The NEC's use Lithium Ion cells, not Nickel Cadmium - which are even more volatile than NiCad's given the right conditions, i.e. over rating, over charging over heating.
Rich's site has a drill down of the procedure:
http://hpcnec.com/battery.htm | |
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H/PC Oracle Posts: | 16,175 |
Location: | Budapest, Hungary | Status: | |
| afaik you need standard sized 18650 li-ion cells 
best place to get them: http://batteryspace.com, you can have tabbed option for an additional 0.25, so that's no problem either  don't even look at the 2000 mAh ones, you'll want the highest capacity (2400 mAh )!  | |
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H/PC Elder Posts: | 1,712 |
Location: | New Mexico, US | Status: | |
| Yes, batteryspace has it ... or you can also get it from 4sevens
candlepower
Too bad, they currently do not have the 18650 with tabs.  | |
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| Let's see if I have this right,
My 6651 is 10.8v, 1800mah so that's three 600mah Lion cells?
If I replace the 600mah cells with 2400mah Lions I'll have a capacity of 7.2AH ?
4 times more capacity? Cripes, that might be >12 hours using wireless.
But, won't it take 4x times longer to charge? Would the factory PCB charger be "aware" that the cells have 4x the capacity and need a longer charge? Or would the factory PCB charge the cells to 600mah and then quit?
Same deal for my Libretto? I think it has three 400mah cells. (10.8v/1200mah rating).
I could increase the battery power by a factor of 8x? Get >10 hours using wireless?
Me head spins at the prospects of 7.2AH of power.
I'll be ordering a whack of batteries and fast if I get these types of increases.
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H/PC Elder Posts: | 1,712 |
Location: | New Mexico, US | Status: | |
| wally - 2005-06-14 8:56 AM
Let's see if I have this right,
My 6651 is 10.8v, 1800mah so that's three 600mah Lion cells?
If I replace the 600mah cells with 2400mah Lions I'll have a capacity of 7.2AH ?
4 times more capacity? Cripes, that might be >12 hours using wireless.
But, won't it take 4x times longer to charge? Would the factory PCB charger be "aware" that the cells have 4x the capacity and need a longer charge? Or would the factory PCB charge the cells to 600mah and then quit?
Same deal for my Libretto? I think it has three 400mah cells. (10.8v/1200mah rating).
I could increase the battery power by a factor of 8x? Get >10 hours using wireless?
Me head spins at the prospects of 7.2AH of power.
I'll be ordering a whack of batteries and fast if I get these types of increases.
Wally, your 6651 prob has 3 X 3.6V cells, to get the 10.8. They are then 1800mAh cells presently. If you refurb with the 2400mAh cells, then you are getting another 600mAh ... ie 30% increase in power (theoretical anyway.  ) ... should still translate to a few hours more of usage.
A good choice esp if you old batt is old and not holding much charge already.
For the librettos, it would be twice the capacity, so you should get anywhere between 170% ~ 200% of usage time. ie, if you old 1200mAh cells give you 2 hours (in new condition ), the new cells should give anywhere from 3~4hours. | |
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| That's where me head spins. My 3 x 3.6v are in series to get my 10.8v, so the 1800mah current rating is my series rating of three 600mah cells, right?
Doh, current icreases in parallel, my bad. Each cell is 1800mah. Yep, I'll see a nice increase still. I'd guess using the 10-15% loss per year quoted at batteryspace my aged cells are probably about 40-60% of original. So even a doubling of my time on wireless would be very nice. 4-6 hours constant would make me very pleased.
But I see even greater gains for my Libretto. even older lower capacity cells to start with. I might get a 3x increase. Still worth enough for me to order some cells and have fun.
But what about the charging issue I raised? Longer charge times for sure if the PCB doesn't terminate the charge based on 1800mah cells being charged.
How are lions charged? Pulsed until a certain temp is reached? Voltge? Shoild I (seroiusoy) add vent holes in the battery pack after I've swapped cells to reduce latent heat and make sure the cells are hitting their peak charge if heat is the measure?
How does batterspace ship. UPS? That nixes it for me due to UPS "bogusery fees" to clear shipments into canada.
However, I'm preety keen on doing some rebuilding as I have some boondoock trips in the future where I will need all the capacity I can get before I can recharge. | |
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H/PC Oracle Posts: | 16,175 |
Location: | Budapest, Hungary | Status: | |
| don't worry about charging and temperature, they'll be fine
i don't know much about the charging process but after a certain voltage (4.1-4.25 per cells ) is reached, they're still charging, dunno what decides the end (oh it's chemistry, i liked it but forgot it ), but i read and know from experience that higher capacity batts will be fine too.
you don't have to pay ups fees, i didn't, when i ordered from batteryspace (i'm no us resident either ). so, i think shipping is cheap enough to be worth it, it was 15$ for me in hungary. | |
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H/PC Elder Posts: | 1,712 |
Location: | New Mexico, US | Status: | |
| wally - 2005-06-14 10:21 AM
That's where me head spins. My 3 x 3.6v are in series to get my 10.8v, so the 1800mah current rating is my series rating of three 600mah cells, right?
Doh, current icreases in parallel, my bad. Each cell is 1800mah. Yep, I'll see a nice increase still. I'd guess using the 10-15% loss per year quoted at batteryspace my aged cells are probably about 40-60% of original. So even a doubling of my time on wireless would be very nice. 4-6 hours constant would make me very pleased.
But I see even greater gains for my Libretto. even older lower capacity cells to start with. I might get a 3x increase. Still worth enough for me to order some cells and have fun.
But what about the charging issue I raised? Longer charge times for sure if the PCB doesn't terminate the charge based on 1800mah cells being charged.
How are lions charged? Pulsed until a certain temp is reached? Voltge? Shoild I (seroiusoy) add vent holes in the battery pack after I've swapped cells to reduce latent heat and make sure the cells are hitting their peak charge if heat is the measure?
How does batterspace ship. UPS? That nixes it for me due to UPS "bogusery fees" to clear shipments into canada.
However, I'm preety keen on doing some rebuilding as I have some boondoock trips in the future where I will need all the capacity I can get before I can recharge.
Unfortunately batteryspace shipping is fixed at around $7 using UPS. ... or was it USPS priority ... anyhow, I remember it is $7 flat, so unless you order like 100 batts ...
On charging, as cmonex said, it will charge up alright. And to add to that, most of the charging circuits will charge to max and drop to float charge. Some will do a BURST charge with high current, until it reaches around 80%, then trickle charge at 1/10C until it reaches 100% and then drop to float.
In any case, you should notice a slightly longer charging cycle, since the capacity is higher. But if the 6651 uses the burst charge infront, the difference may be minimal. | |
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H/PC Oracle Posts: | 16,175 |
Location: | Budapest, Hungary | Status: | |
| oh well, as far as i remember, there were three (? ) options for shipping.. the cheapest was 15$ for me, so it's definitely not UPS... USPS at most.. they're completely different. | |
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| I want (not really need ) 12 cells for my various Libretto packs and 9 cells for my 6651 packs.
Ouch! That's a lot of green for cells. I guess I'll settle on my doing my dead 6651 pack and my 1/2 dead 6651 pack. That's still 6 cells + shipping. Still cheaper than buying new tho' I've seen new sealed 6651 packs on Ebay with BIN of $25. Always miss 'em tho. LOL
I hope I remember how to solder and don't cut off too many fingers opening the old packs.
Thanks for the info on charging guys. I don't think anything will get damaged with the higher capacity cells.
This is the first project I'm really exited about since getting my 6651. Imagine being able to use my rig while flying all the way across the Atlantic. Outstanding.
I'll LYK if I blow anything up,
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H/PC Elder Posts: | 1,712 |
Location: | New Mexico, US | Status: | |
| wally - 2005-06-15 8:48 PM
I want (not really need ) 12 cells for my various Libretto packs and 9 cells for my 6651 packs.
Ouch! That's a lot of green for cells. I guess I'll settle on my doing my dead 6651 pack and my 1/2 dead 6651 pack. That's still 6 cells + shipping. Still cheaper than buying new tho' I've seen new sealed 6651 packs on Ebay with BIN of $25. Always miss 'em tho. LOL
I hope I remember how to solder and don't cut off too many fingers opening the old packs.
Thanks for the info on charging guys. I don't think anything will get damaged with the higher capacity cells.
This is the first project I'm really exited about since getting my 6651. Imagine being able to use my rig while flying all the way across the Atlantic. Outstanding.
I'll LYK if I blow anything up,
oh, btw, most "new" batts of EOL HPCs are really new batts of old stock. Chances are that they've been laying around for 2~3 yrs now, since production should have stopped. Some batts have manufacture dates. If its 2~3 years old, by a 10~20% degradation of the li-ion chemicals, it may be near half-cap or maybe 70% full cap. So you are still better off refurbing with the higher cap 2400mAh batts.
well, let us know how the refurbing goes ... | |
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