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Fusion Reactor

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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 10:10 AM
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I read on Make magazine, something about Fusion Reactor for the rest of us.

Safer than nuclear reactor is it?

What are your thoughts.



especially to power supercomputers.... you know...

For those who watch USA TVs, Person of Interest series is really good. I think fusion reactor is crucial in years to come.

Edited by stingraze 2014-04-08 10:19 AM
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 2:42 PM
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There was a kid over here who achieved a fusion reaction last month and is now the youngest person ever recorded to have done so http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-26450512

Fusion would be the magnum opus of the energy industry, it would destroy all existing contemporary energy industries over a period of about 50 years as the technology was miniaturised and became safer. That would also lead to a massive shockwave in heavy industry, energy production and taxation revenues. The fossil fuel industry would die very quickly.

The problem with fusion is that fusion is infinitely achievable, it is just that we've only started to see the first signs of net yield increase in power from research Tokamak systems in the last couple of years - and even then they are somewhat fleeting. Requiring a small power station in order to generate a small power station plus a hamster on a wheel's worth of power output.

Clean fusion theory has the potential to be safer than fission, but we aren't there yet. Fusion reactions still irradiate (be it in different ways) and uncontrolled plasma bursts could be very dangerous. Basically we're looking at decommissioning lifespans in the terms of someones life rather than a couple of million years. Fusion creates free neutrons, free neutrons create radiation when they impact other materials - a la fission piles (neutron reflectors). Tokamak's also tend to be fuelled by Tritium (Protium [-> natural Hydrogen] -> Deuterium -> Tritium). 3H (Tritium) is highly radioactive. Radioactive material in = radiation problem.

The use of Tritium also creates an other false economy. While the Tokamac may produce more energy than is takes to fire the reactor, Tritium doesn't occur naturally save for in tiny quantities in the upper atmosphere. Thus it has to be engineered. Ironically if memory serves 3H is manufactured by placing Deuterium into a fission reactor - though don't quote me on that. So in order for fusion to genuinely have a net gain it must produce more energy than was necessary to both fire itself AND produce the Tritium. If the entire system relies on fission reactors, then we'll likely need more fission reactors in order to feed the fusion reactors. What we've really achieved is an even greater dependency on fission be it likely having eradicated fossil fuels in the process. Great news for Japan who are trying to cold shutdown their stock.

Cold fusion has always been Sci-Fi's answer, you don't need 8000k temperatures and it is still powerful enough to prevent radiation exposure. We aren't there yet and the last I heard, it was never likely to be possible.

But all in, yes, I think we should be throwing money at the problem. We should also be throwing money at higher burn rate fission such as standing or travelling wave reactors as we can throw fission waste into these things and have it cook that back into usable energy (reducing its long-term radioactivity). TW/SW in theory don't require core servicing, so potentially are much safer.
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 3:02 PM
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Actually we don't need newer sources of power. Solar energy is adequate enough, coupled with wind power and hydrodynamic energy sources.

The problem is the demand for energy is so great because of the massive population of the world. And the available resources continue to dwindle as they are used up at an exponential rate.

The solution is that someone needs to unleash a deadly plague upon the earth and kill off 99% of the population, except for those selected who are given a vaccine for protection. Afterwards we simply need controlled population measures to enforce an equalibrium.

First to go: Lawyers and politicians, then next will the be warmongers and the intollerant. Also the morally deviant and criminal factions must be eradicated.

Well, that's my thoughts. When it is all over I'll be lying on a beach somewhere with my 15 girlfriends getting a tan....and for the record, a healthy libido is not morally deviant.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 4:17 PM
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Speak for yourself in your southern latitudes in a country that has a lot of desert that no one minds tiling over with photovoltaics.

Up here in space starved northern latitudes where it's dark from 3:30pm - 8am at certain points of the year, solar is about as workable on a commercial scale as a chocolate teapot. It is just about true to say that you can scrape personal photovoltaics into being usable, but only because of government subsidy and the vast majority of people here don't have the roof space to make it pay. There certainly isn't the ground space.
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 6:01 PM
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Well...can't they just build some big power generators in the channel and catch the currents to spin the turbines up there?
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 6:18 PM
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Tidal is another area that should be funded, specifically by the UK gov. because of our island nature... yet we really don't. Sad really.
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 8:29 PM
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C:Amie - 2014-04-08 11:42 PM

There was a kid over here who achieved a fusion reaction last month and is now the youngest person ever recorded to have done so http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-26450512

Fusion would be the magnum opus of the energy industry, it would destroy all existing contemporary energy industries over a period of about 50 years as the technology was miniaturised and became safer. That would also lead to a massive shockwave in heavy industry, energy production and taxation revenues. The fossil fuel industry would die very quickly.

The problem with fusion is that fusion is infinitely achievable, it is just that we've only started to see the first signs of net yield increase in power from research Tokamak systems in the last couple of years - and even then they are somewhat fleeting. Requiring a small power station in order to generate a small power station plus a hamster on a wheel's worth of power output.

Clean fusion theory has the potential to be safer than fission, but we aren't there yet. Fusion reactions still irradiate (be it in different ways) and uncontrolled plasma bursts could be very dangerous. Basically we're looking at decommissioning lifespans in the terms of someones life rather than a couple of million years. Fusion creates free neutrons, free neutrons create radiation when they impact other materials - a la fission piles (neutron reflectors). Tokamak's also tend to be fuelled by Tritium (Protium [-> natural Hydrogen] -> Deuterium -> Tritium). 3H (Tritium) is highly radioactive. Radioactive material in = radiation problem.

The use of Tritium also creates an other false economy. While the Tokamac may produce more energy than is takes to fire the reactor, Tritium doesn't occur naturally save for in tiny quantities in the upper atmosphere. Thus it has to be engineered. Ironically if memory serves 3H is manufactured by placing Deuterium into a fission reactor - though don't quote me on that. So in order for fusion to genuinely have a net gain it must produce more energy than was necessary to both fire itself AND produce the Tritium. If the entire system relies on fission reactors, then we'll likely need more fission reactors in order to feed the fusion reactors. What we've really achieved is an even greater dependency on fission be it likely having eradicated fossil fuels in the process. Great news for Japan who are trying to cold shutdown their stock.

Cold fusion has always been Sci-Fi's answer, you don't need 8000k temperatures and it is still powerful enough to prevent radiation exposure. We aren't there yet and the last I heard, it was never likely to be possible.

But all in, yes, I think we should be throwing money at the problem. We should also be throwing money at higher burn rate fission such as standing or travelling wave reactors as we can throw fission waste into these things and have it cook that back into usable energy (reducing its long-term radioactivity). TW/SW in theory don't require core servicing, so potentially are much safer.


Actually, I know about that kid, I read in a book a while ago.(^_^)

About the output, it seems pretty amazing by the one a guy who worked in Los Alamos is making....
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 8:30 PM
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Rich Hawley - 2014-04-09 3:01 AM

Well...can't they just build some big power generators in the channel and catch the currents to spin the turbines up there?


They do that somewhere, I forgot.

Edited by stingraze 2014-04-08 8:30 PM
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 9:41 PM
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C:Amie - 2014-04-09 1:17 AM

Speak for yourself in your southern latitudes in a country that has a lot of desert that no one minds tiling over with photovoltaics.

Up here in space starved northern latitudes where it's dark from 3:30pm - 8am at certain points of the year, solar is about as workable on a commercial scale as a chocolate teapot. It is just about true to say that you can scrape personal photovoltaics into being usable, but only because of government subsidy and the vast majority of people here don't have the roof space to make it pay. There certainly isn't the ground space.


What about geothermal, or the reverse, by using heat differences?
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2014-04-08 10:13 PM
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C:Amie - 2014-04-09 3:18 AM

Tidal is another area that should be funded, specifically by the UK gov. because of our island nature... yet we really don't. Sad really.


http://www.nhk.or.jp/japan311/kuro-marine.html

We're beginning this slowly.
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2014-04-09 3:43 AM
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C:Amie - 2014-04-08 11:42 PM

There was a kid over here who achieved a fusion reaction last month and is now the youngest person ever recorded to have done so http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-26450512
.


I just saw the link now, I heard of a different kid in USA who did that by getting parts from many ppl.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2014-04-09 9:06 AM
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stingraze - 2014-04-08 9:41 PM

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C:Amie - 2014-04-09 1:17 AM

Speak for yourself in your southern latitudes in a country that has a lot of desert that no one minds tiling over with photovoltaics.

Up here in space starved northern latitudes where it's dark from 3:30pm - 8am at certain points of the year, solar is about as workable on a commercial scale as a chocolate teapot. It is just about true to say that you can scrape personal photovoltaics into being usable, but only because of government subsidy and the vast majority of people here don't have the roof space to make it pay. There certainly isn't the ground space.


What about geothermal, or the reverse, by using heat differences?
Not in this country, we're geologically stable. Anyone can use subterranean heat reclaim, it takes the edge off of the heating bills but is expensive to install and doesn't offer heat much above 10c.
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2014-04-09 10:16 AM
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Hm... Ice cold is it?

Here we have 4 seasons.....

So.. the point is we can harvest new energy. In magnetic form and electromagnetic form.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2014-04-09 11:39 AM
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I don't follow?

In order to use geothermal energy effectively you need a thin crust boundary, the UK sits on a very old continental shelf and the nearest plate boundary is mid-Atlantic. To properly exploit geothermal you'd have to drill a hell of a long way down. You can reclaim heat from the ambient ground temperature, but that isn't much heat.

So "In magnetic form and electromagnetic form", I don't follow your point?
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Rich Hawley Page Icon Posted 2014-04-09 12:55 PM
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Unless you are lucky enough to be situated near a hot spring or geyser. Had a friend in Fairbanks that I would visit...it would be 50F below zero and his house would be in the '70s...all from circulated water from a hot spring less than 100 yards away. The rest of us spent our time cutting wood for our wood stoves while he spent his time watching us work.

"In magnetic form and electromagnetic": Energy from induction, much like a wind generator, but with the possibility of capturing power from the earth's natural magnetosphere....
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