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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 6:12 PM
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Zapper - 2005-07-18 3:05 PM

Indeed. So, we know that 2.11 MIPS4k is slower than HPC2k on StrongArm, which is about the same speed as HPC2k on XScale. And we know that CE4.2 on XScale is a little faster still, though this highly dependent on what you're actually crunching. I believe the biggest difference is in multimedia and other applications where vectorization is possible. But for non-multimedia applications, is there any *compelling* difference in performance?


Zapper, as mentioned by everyone else corporate, you won't see much diff for most apps. Yes, 1 sec, or 500msec, but dun expect to see too much diff for most apps.

The benchmarks are flawed and at the same time correct in the sense that, by repeating the same operations a few hundred or thousand times, they magnify any differences in performances so that its visible. But at the same time, it means that if the differences is just a few points (or even many few points!), it may translate to only a 1 sec or half sec differences.

As also mentioned, running CPU intensive applications, like multimedia apps will show, and then there are those HPCs with added graphics processors like the GX2000 (yes?) on some devices like the SL4. These will do some of the graphics work for the CPU (if the OS is optimized for that) and hence will give a better overall performance, such as speedier screen redraw etc.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 6:12 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-07-18 11:58 PM

Railing means 'not comfortable' esentially.


oh, you mean hpc2000 isn't comfy enough on a 900? or i'm confused so, it wasn't uncomfortable or anything.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 6:17 PM
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Snappy! - 2005-07-19 12:12 AM

Zapper, as mentioned by everyone else corporate, you won't see much diff for most apps. Yes, 1 sec, or 500msec, but dun expect to see too much diff for most apps.

The benchmarks are flawed and at the same time correct in the sense that, by repeating the same operations a few hundred or thousand times, they magnify any differences in performances so that its visible. But at the same time, it means that if the differences is just a few points (or even many few points!), it may translate to only a 1 sec or half sec differences.

As also mentioned, running CPU intensive applications, like multimedia apps will show, and then there are those HPCs with added graphics processors like the GX2000 (yes?) on some devices like the SL4. These will do some of the graphics work for the CPU (if the OS is optimized for that) and hence will give a better overall performance, such as speedier screen redraw etc.


Snappy, again some excellent posts from you!

i'd mention another factor.. how well is a program written... just compare IE 2 to IE 4... of course a slow SH3 cpu absolutely can't compete with a strongarm or xscale, but there are some stuff in IE 2 that is no longer in IE 4 so you'll have to wait for more time in certain cases
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 6:24 PM
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I'm referring to the IA32 Architecture core set vs IA64 vs Alpha vs MIPS vs PPC. Not the "impliementation, bolt-ons and optimisation techniques"/technology

cmonex,

HPC2000 on it in my experience doesn't run as well as it should.

Sanppy!,
Video is specifically whatt I'm thinking of (having spent too much time on PocketDVD benchmarking, I seem to think in video framerates at the moment )
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Snappy! Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 6:26 PM
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cmonex - 2005-07-18 4:17 PM

Snappy, again some excellent posts from you!

i'd mention another factor.. how well is a program written... just compare IE 2 to IE 4... of course a slow SH3 cpu absolutely can't compete with a strongarm or xscale, but there are some stuff in IE 2 that is no longer in IE 4 so you'll have to wait for more time in certain cases


Thank you! *nods head* ... ... I aim to please!

Sadly, since most apps uses MFC for coding, be it on desktop or HPCs or other Windows platform, there is a huge chunk of the app's performance that *cannot* be optimized much. Its limited by how optimized MFC code is. In some cases, rather optimized, but in most others, slow and chunky, if not leaky (think memory leaks!)

(TabletPC users should know this. Windows XP TabletPC edition has a memory leak issue until its patched only recently. grrr )
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 7:44 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-07-19 12:24 AM

cmonex,

HPC2000 on it in my experience doesn't run as well as it should.

Sanppy!,
Video is specifically whatt I'm thinking of (having spent too much time on PocketDVD benchmarking, I seem to think in video framerates at the moment )


um, you actually have experience with a hpc2000 MP900?
and have you had experience with a ce.net 900C?
you could really believe me of course it's not compulsory

video? oh, i benchmarked betaplayer on hpc2000 900, and it wasn't any better than the jornada 72x.
but i don't want to be misunderstood. the MP900 is still a great device and if money doesn't matter i'd surely choose it over the 790. (though i haven't seen a 790 in real life)
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Zapper Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 8:05 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-07-18 6:24 PM

I'm referring to the IA32 Architecture core set vs IA64 vs Alpha vs MIPS vs PPC. Not the "impliementation, bolt-ons and optimisation techniques"/technology


And that is what threw me. In my original post, I said *internal architecture*, not the instruction set. Instruction set compatibility, even if not entirely identical due to extensions, is available from a whole slew of different processors that have vastly different internal architectures. Apologies for being unclear. I am more oriented towards the hardware side of things.

C:Amie - 2005-07-18 6:24 PM

Video is specifically whatt I'm thinking of (having spent too much time on PocketDVD benchmarking, I seem to think in video framerates at the moment )


Ahh, I understand where you are coming from now. No, video is not a priority for me at all. Long useful lifetime as an engineer's scratchpad is. I never could understand why you'd want to go through all the trouble of ripping, then re-encoding for a tiny screen, then squinting at it and having to listen via earphones, when you could watch it on a telly with surround sound without having to strain your eyes or spend any CPU resources on it. Oh well, to each their own I guess.

Oh, wait, I get it now. Vacation videos! You can torture your friends and coworkers without even having to invite them for a barby and buy them beer!
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 8:12 PM
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videos.. you didn't even mention dstn
but if you're away you can watch video then. could be cool sometimes.
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Zapper Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 8:31 PM
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cmonex - 2005-07-18 5:12 PM

wow i'm not alone not understanding what railing means! so good not to be alone!

no, there's no compelling difference between strongarm and xscale, i can't compare them with mips though. you should be able to as you had both (or did you mean your question about comparing the 900 (hpc2000) and the 900C (ce.net)? in this case, again no compelling difference. i wish i had made tests, but i never thought of that, only in the case of IE4 and IE6)
btw, i can assure you there's a compelling difference between sh3 and strongarm (my experience) (though it is application dependant..)


Indeed. So does that mean that confusion, like misery, loves company?
Must be Limey slang..

Thank you Cmonex for the info on comparative performance between MP900 and 900c. I was primarily interested in cpu performance for my mobile data crunching experiments. I'd like the thing to act as a kind of combination tricorder.
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Zapper Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 8:39 PM
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Snappy! - 2005-07-18 6:26 PM

Sadly, since most apps uses MFC for coding, be it on desktop or HPCs or other Windows platform, there is a huge chunk of the app's performance that *cannot* be optimized much. Its limited by how optimized MFC code is. In some cases, rather optimized, but in most others, slow and chunky, if not leaky (think memory leaks!)

(TabletPC users should know this. Windows XP TabletPC edition has a memory leak issue until its patched only recently. grrr )


Facinating. Thanks for the info, Snappy! Would you happen to know the chipset signal latency and the ISR times (or at least a general idea) on an MP900 vs J72x? Are they tighter than that on an MP780? I find that logging a serial info stream at maximum bitrate to be easy. Doing something with that data while capturing it sometimes causes data to have to be dropped in order to clear the uart buffer.

Is there the equivalent of DMA on these things? Then I could just have it dump the data in shared unlocked and have the app sample the log instead of manually manipulating the stream?
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wallythacker Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 8:46 PM
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I'll add my 2 cents here.
After first getting my 6651 and playing about for a bit, I thought I made a mistake and went hunting for a 72x because it seemed to have everything, arm, speed, compatibility, futureproof.

I learned speed and cpu type wasn't the endall. In another thread we discussed performance and my 129mhz mips delivers about 60-65% of the performance of a 400mhz xscale. So IMO it's not all about numbers or cpu type. If the unit does what you want in an acceptable timeframe, so be it.

For me it is all about the OS. I sold my j690 because I felt really restricted softwarewise. The 2.11 OS didn't allow me the flexibility of hpc2k. I've discovered many ppc programs work great on my hpc. With a few exceptions, I *think* there is enough life left in hpc2k to carry me to the day of my next hpc, whenever a suitable one appears

I feel fortunate having both a 2.11 and hpc2k machine concurrently. It taught me to appreciate the value of hpc2k.

I realized after I bought my 6651 that the unit originally shipped with 2.11 or hpc2k. I never asked the vendor what OS it had, my bad. Anyway, if I had received a 2.11 unit I'd be doing my best to get the rom updated to unlock the full potential. To end my long-windedness, IMO, going from 2.11 to hpc2k may be the *only* update many hpc users will ever need.

In my case, I've realized a change of cpu or moving to .net OS wasn't in my best interests. I'd lose the best screen ever produced on any hpc, past or present and USB hosting. I was hunting for another unit, arm based, for my flyiing adventures but since I've had no luck meeting my criteria I realized I have the best of the pack already.


Edited by wallythacker 2005-07-18 9:05 PM
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Zapper Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 9:04 PM
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Snappy! - 2005-07-18 6:04 PM

I'll third that option! Upgrading to a 790 via a ROM upgrade or a totally different set is prob good enuff.


Thanks Corporate, Cmonex, C:Amie, Snappy!, for your recomendations. I'll definitely look into the MP790 angle.


Snappy!

Or else you can consider a J720 if you dun mind the slightly daintier keyboard.


Unfortunately, the J72x series is sort of out. I'm not sure if it will be easy enough to look at without bifocals, like the MP, and I have big grease monkey hands. The Mobilepro's keyboard is just about the smallest I can use comfortably.

Snappy!

So, if it were for the apps and hpc2000 support, go for 790. But if you really want a longer support for software, J720 may be a better bet, since it is on StrongARM and hence would run even more apps, even ppc apps with some tweaking.
..... now back to the question of upgrading ... as I mentioned, if you are really for longer lifespan in terms of software support, go for a J720. If not, a 790 ROM upgrade.


Indeed. Hence my thoughts on getting an MP900. Newer OS and longer support lifetime with that cpu plus the larger form factor I find comfortable. I may have to check out the J72x series for the price though.. The sticker shock is strong in this one...

Snappy!

PS: Remember how certain apps would crash in AMD systems but run perfectly in Intel systems. There *are* differences in even how the x86-compatible architecture is being implemented. Of cos stabilities plays in, but is a different issue altogether.


It would not surprise me if something similar to the issues encountered by the gent in the following link were to blame for a significant portion of those instabilities.

http://www.swallowtail.org/naughty-intel.html

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Zapper Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 9:14 PM
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cmonex - 2005-07-18 8:12 PM

videos.. you didn't even mention dstn
but if you're away you can watch video then. could be cool sometimes.


DSTN.. Do you get a lot of ghosting? I can see where a faster cpu or even specific multimedia extensions will not help you there at all..

But if it is tolerable, I suppose it would be better than an INtolerable in-flight movie..
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corporate Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 10:49 PM
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wallythacker - 2005-07-18 6:46 PM

I'll add my 2 cents here.
After first getting my 6651 and playing about for a bit, I thought I made a mistake and went hunting for a 72x because it seemed to have everything, arm, speed, compatibility, futureproof.

I learned speed and cpu type wasn't the endall. In another thread we discussed performance and my 129mhz mips delivers about 60-65% of the performance of a 400mhz xscale. So IMO it's not all about numbers or cpu type. If the unit does what you want in an acceptable timeframe, so be it.

For me it is all about the OS. I sold my j690 because I felt really restricted softwarewise. The 2.11 OS didn't allow me the flexibility of hpc2k. I've discovered many ppc programs work great on my hpc. With a few exceptions, I *think* there is enough life left in hpc2k to carry me to the day of my next hpc, whenever a suitable one appears

I feel fortunate having both a 2.11 and hpc2k machine concurrently. It taught me to appreciate the value of hpc2k.

I realized after I bought my 6651 that the unit originally shipped with 2.11 or hpc2k. I never asked the vendor what OS it had, my bad. Anyway, if I had received a 2.11 unit I'd be doing my best to get the rom updated to unlock the full potential. To end my long-windedness, IMO, going from 2.11 to hpc2k may be the *only* update many hpc users will ever need.

In my case, I've realized a change of cpu or moving to .net OS wasn't in my best interests. I'd lose the best screen ever produced on any hpc, past or present and USB hosting. I was hunting for another unit, arm based, for my flyiing adventures but since I've had no luck meeting my criteria I realized I have the best of the pack already.


I'd like to take this time and say how much I've been wanting a 6651 over the past few weeks because of your posts... I'm still contemplating getting one and if the money becomes available over the next month (highly unlikely, I'm very much in debt) I may pick one up to see what the fuss is all about
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wally
wally Page Icon Posted 2005-07-18 11:08 PM
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The 6651 is a love or hate issue.
A. Once it's in yur hands and you unlock the potential you love it.
B. If you don't use the usb hosting or ppc dll mods it's still a beautiful but large hpc, and a 690/mp780 is certainly smaller and may be more attractive to some.

Most present owners I've spoken with live in the A camp and those who sold them are in the B camp. At some point I'm buying a 2nd unit. Since I've nixed my search for an arm unit I can spend that money on another 6651. Two 6651s will be manageable airborne and the advantages of having identical units are obvious in terms of backups, accessories, familiarity and so on.
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