Upgrade-itis? (J-720) How? Er, WHEN! "Ultimate HPC" Prognostications Solicited

Just some thoughts--and DO correct me if you think I'm wrong

I've been thinking about all the inherent limitations of my 720, i.e. as compared to the:

1) latest video and gaming platforms (too numerous to mention, but ranging from personal video players to the PSP);

2) High-rez (daylight-viewable? Whazzat?) screens;

3) telephony (put the emphasis on the second syllable, IMHO, you mad Australians, yeh);

4) Er, #3 leads to "bad PDA-to-phone integration," sure...but WILL "Smartphones" (e.g. some of the killer Korean models--NFS here (er, sorry, USA/CAN), yet seeming-jiggly-ly generations beyond BOTH NA "2.5G" phone capabilities AND ergonomics--i.e. slideout, integrated keypads, etc. The latter of which prob'lyare useful only for IMs and/or quick emails, sure...yawn;

5) There've been rumors, albeit not very persistent ones, about major CE manufacturers jumping back into the clambshell form factor, with a vengence--i.e. HP.
OLED screens, built-in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, upgradeable ROM-OS's (and processors and RAM, even?!), etc. How much of this is BS? Which leads me to:

6) Gizmodo .com asked, recently (well, Joel, nigh upon his regrettable leaving) whether PDAs were "dead." I've interpreted that, personally, as asking whether "PDAs" as configured as PPCs (Palm dying, already) are dead--versus whether a "real productivity PDA"--a la the HP Jornada 720/728--is useful. I won't preach to the choir, much, but: am I alone in thinking a major revision of the form-factor is so do-able--replete with "modern" browser and (PSP-level) vid and gaming support (yet with a "real" functional KB, full Office compatiblity, upgradability, relatively unlimited CPU-compatibility (does dual-core PC tech hinder such?) I dunno. You? Where do I go from here? What do I dream about, in terms of functionality--as I curse M$ for their rigid HPC form-factor demands and HP for their vertical-marketing myopia? A HPC for the masses...everything the PPC never has been (a toy)...and everthing the HPC should have been, given consistent development over the last five years...sigh...


Any/many thoughts, ideas about the above thoughts, and anything else, such as:

a) new, hitherto unknown (?) form factors; b) new-tech allowing revisions (slim-ness, etc.) to existing (clamshell) form factors--e.g. OLED, etc.; c) possible widespread consumer demand (and, bien sur, how to seed/feed such via PROPER marketing); e) experts: tell us how one might design a next-gen device--with faster processors and RAM--while retaining the "cool"; f) browse, brouse! Fast!; g) upgradability, again: CPU, ROM/RAM?VPU?; g)oh, just everything else!

Thanks; hope to extend the dialog by raising Qs, not limit it to such simple Qs as raised byme , so, please, jump in. Also: intend to watch, not comment much; no grand band-leader designs in my psyche--just MUCH interest about what others think, esp. how the most informed might configure a device, and/or the poop on efforts from the majors.

Peace

What I dont get is how many Laptop (ie 32bit mobile platforms) features we just dont see in out handhelds, even some of the newest PPc's:

1. Flat Li-Ion battery as undercarrage/behind the LCD (huge batteries, low dimensions)
2. EASILY upgradable RAM and Processors
3. Active styli (much better then touchscreen IMHO as long as you dont lose pens easily)

And things that need to be used more:

1. USB Mass Storage
2. Support for extended resolution IE Nyditot compatability.
3. Compatability with PPC Aps

And less:

1. Proprietary connectors(!!!)
2. <VGA Screens
3. Prices that reflect the market rather than the cost!

In a semi-comclusion, there are a good amount of 200-400MHz 32 bit subnotebooks out there with 2x as much (almost) everything as our handhelds... Why do we need all the battery life and low weight at the cost of MUCH usability and compatability?

ok, ok, take it easy. You are passing through the "I-Love-MyHPC-But-D*rn-cannot-do-that-one-thing-a-notebook-or-ppc-can-do" phase ...

As I've noticed myself and very much every other new HPC user go through, we love our device and after 1~2 months, we get frustrated with some limitation and the lack of future upgradability or new devices while we see 1) subnotebook prices plummet and 2) PPC devices incorporate all the latest in LCD, CPU, networking (wifi/bt) technology at a relatively low cost and still not have a proper touch-typeable keyboard like the HPCs.

*phew* ... that was a long sentence.

Frankly, we never know. Unless there are some industrial pundits who has insider news, otherwise we are really just hoping against odds. However, given the current trend in the mobile phone arena where couple of phones (think motorola) incorporate a clamshell design, albeit in a phone-size, making the keyboard finger-pecking and the screen good for inducing myopia, there is an increasing chance that the clamshell design might just come back.

Just look at how SHARP ceased (more or less) the PPC form-factor SL-5###/6000# Zaurii, and released one after another clamshell C-series Zaurii ... C700/760/770/780/860/1000/3000/3100 etc

But prices of any commodities will always be determined by the market demand/supply factors. Period. No one is going to sell a device close to cost if they can rake in $$ and laugh all the way to the bank. So how does it work? It will take one of the OEMs to come out with a compelling design or application using the HPC form factor such that the early-adopters will pay like through their nose for the early high prices. *And* it will take savvy Sales/Marketing folks to see the demand in the mass market for consumers. Then it will take more early-adopters to reach critical mass before the top brass commits to mass-producing for the masses. Then boom, $300~$500 HPCs with the latest transflective/LED backlight, XScale cpu, CF/SD slot etc.

Frankly, I was thinking about slots for HPCs ... me now thinks that newer HPCs prob dun need a PCMCIA slot. It just need a CF+SD or 2XCF slot to run. Since wifi/bt can be integrated, the expansion slot is really good for prob storage etc. Why bother with an external wifi card if you can have it integrated?

Unfortunately, there are many people who find even the Jornadas too big for their usage. Ultimately, when the dust dies down, it depends on who needs a handheld/pda with a typeable keyboard. These are the folks who will get HPCs. And if these folks are not large enough a group, ... ... I doubt HPC will make a comeback.

about your semi-conclusion.. i just need them (battery life and low weight AND small size!!) and that's it.
i have a subnotebook (10,4" and barely 1.3 kg with battery) and it doesn't suit my needs even with two batteries.. it can run for 4-6 hours with them. so my concern is not only the battery life (as 4-6 hours should be fine). it's just that a laptop can never be good for me in terms of size and instant-on.. the new toshiba librettos seem close but not close enough far from it.. (and i don't have 1500$ to spend on them)
of course once in a while i need my laptop, but that's really rare... most of the time a good hpc will do everything (a ppc wouldn't be able to)

Me, I DO trade off battery life for compatability :-) I need that 6 hours between charges so I dont have to carry the adaptor to school on the commute. I can deal with no proper web browsing and games at a 'Due to Customer' of 1lb or more compared to a regular laptop, or even a light subnotebook. I cant wait untill I get my Jornada 820 working.... I'll put my Clio to better use! I also just picked up a NEC Ultralite, the newer 2000 version, for only 2x that which I paid for my Clio.... Man!! I love 'stealing' on Ebay! The battery was listed as semi-functional, but I've remade battery packs for my Cybiko Xtreme and my Highnote Ultra II so I should be okay.... except for the 1800mAh primary built in battery..... dont know what to do there... I hope I can find a spare!

now Snappy, this would have been my reply yesterday

well you'd never think there are people who have been living happily with a ppc, then see a recent review of an old HPC on a pda portal, then they fall in love with the old hpc and get one asap i know some such people
so i really hope they'll make a comeback.. there IS a chance for that.. although maybe slim (?).
frustration.. now that's true.. especially when seeing new PPC's.. grrr
about the usability of a HPC.. i don't have to make too many compromises fortunately. the only one remaining is maybe IE. of course IE6 (netfront3, minimo 0.006 etc) is fine regarding compatibility, speed isn't too bad either (15 secs is OK), but i'd like to have the ability to open multiple windows as easily as on a PC. it can be done but still not the same..
some other comments:
ahah i don't really see subnotebook prices lowering here in hungary... it might be true of other countries... i don't know
why not have three slots? CF, SD and a third (dunno exactly what kind ) and of course usb.. (though i don't use it on my 900C) and so on.. and on..
ok, if wifi is built-in i'd be fine with two slots. (even if bluetooth isn't built-in - but then three slots would be a definite advantage)

I've always been partial to modularity. If I were to draw up a wishlist, it would have to be something like an MP900 in form factor, but with a higher resolution sunlight viewable screen, and PCMCA 32bit Cardbus slots galore. I just lined up 4 PCMCIA cards side by side across the width of the MP780, with plenty of room to spare. So I figure, make a sturdy clamshell that is basically nothing but screen and keyboard and onboard interfacing bus. There is room under the keyboard for 4 side-by-side Type III PCMCIA form factor back-facing slots, and possibly 4 more top-facing (when the screen is open) Type II PCMCIA slots behind the LCD.

Why all these slots?

Because then the thing will be nought but a hollow shell with a keyboard and screen. Cheap, light, and easily configurable. Plus of course the interface bus and bus management circuitry. Out of necessity, at least 2 of those slots have to be something akin to a PC104 interface, but in a PCMCIA Type III form factor. Then you can have a basic combined CPU/chipset/ROM/RAM card, or a master CPU and system chipset card, an OS flash-ROM card, and any number of RAM expansion and battery cards you care to stick into it. Hot swap T2 or T3 batteries on the fly, in any save the master slots (keyed). Populate the functions you need, and you can borrow from a whole slew of cheap mass-market laptop PCMCIA cards. Want 4 USB ports? Serial ATA ports? GPS cards? PCMCIA hard drives? Bluetooth/wifi cards? Cellular phone tranciever cards? Upgraded video and sound cards? It's all available off the shelf and fairly cheap. You can configure your equipment loadout for the task you wish to accomplish. And everything is upgradeable. That might even mean the ability to switch between Xscale and X86, and between CE and embedded XP as needed.

And if you need to upgrade the screen, you can buy another cheap shell with the newer screen, and be able to reuse all your previous cards.

Now, none of this is truly original, mind. We've been doing this with PLC microcontrollers and industrial hot-plug-hot-swap panel boards for decades. Many of the PC104 embedded microcontroller boards use a similar methodology. Even the good old PC has a similar architecture, though not hot-plug. This staves off obsolesence. You can upgrade the CPU, RAM, vidcard, network, drives, etc, all by yourself with cheap off the shelf hardware made by dozens of different manufacturers.

And the shell manufacturers can release a PPC format shell that can take these cards as well, so they are not limited by the relatively small size of the HPC market. The same cards can be used even on a cellphone.

For the lightweight crowd, 2 T2 slots under the keyboard, one on each side, and two behind the LCD should provide plenty of possibilities while keeping the package small and light yet very flexible and more future proof.

Ok, rant over...

Edited by Zapper 2005-07-24 11:54 AM

Zapper, can we interest you in the position of VicePresident in a to-be-hatched startup producing modular HPC/PPCs? ... ok, now we just need a couple $millions to get started ... ...

Snappy! Let's take it one step further and do a Mini-Vax setup. Then you can hot plug PROCESSOR boards. How does a multiprocessor handheld sound to you? Boost multitasking performance by just plugging in another card..

Those things are pretty neat. Like a passive backplane server with multiple interconnected PC104 computers. Basically entire computers on a card, communicating with each other over a system bus. The one in slot 0 acting as master and all the others as coprocessors that can be assigned individual tasks. Seti@home on a handheld, anyone?

Snappy!: Right there with ya, brother. Cmonex: right on. Pete P.: I understand. Zapper: you are damned close to blowing my friggin' mind, you genius ya!

When I look at the form-factor of my J720--largely dictated by M$, which literally set in concrete the dimensions of the HPC form for all builders wanting to run CE sw, to the CE maunfacturers (that's why an HP Jornada xxx looks so similar to a Sharp Mobion, etc.)--I can't help but believe that this nominally five-year old design (actually, closer to nine years old, now...no design revisions/improvements were made...no money was spent...because M$ was playing heavy-handed design-guru, which, btw, they are NOT good at! and typical monopolist...and then they jettisoned the whole HPC platform. When it didn't work, 'caiuse they crippled it from the get-go. No ongoing innovation because of heavy-handed control (and the whole "vertical marketing" fiasco employed by HP and others, at M$'s impetus also is troublesome, dammit!) = the HPC died on the vine without widespread consumer support.

My take, anyway.

Meanhwhile, among the last things Joel kicked around at Gizmodo, before leaving, recently, was wheter the "PDA is dead"...is it? My take on this is that, yeah, folks have finally glommed to the fact that PPCs (palms, etc.) are just frigin' toys. We DEMAND more productivity/functionality than they can provide. I mean, a REAL keyboard (even if small, a la the J720) is a MUST!

So, seems to me a market for a clamshell ff PDA is a flyer. (Preachin' to the choir, I know <grin>.) Imagine, though, just how much innovation is possible given today's tech--and the lack of encumbrance of M$ who, to their credit, did free up the PPC form factor...maybe listening to critics, gawd, one hopes...

I imagine a Jxx in Powerbook titnium (O.K., all you would-be industrial designers--howsabout maybe thin-shell anodized aluminum? Heat dissipation and cool looks, etc....); half the thickness of the 720, with curved surfaces...closer to, wel, a "clam!"; we know a real browser is possible, it's just a question of will; we know real video playback is possible--PSP, etc.; we know (Zapper!) that modular storage and interfaces are possible; and that integrated Wi-Fi and Bluetooth need not tale up external ports; RAM is cheap; ROM OS is smart--instant-on, etc.--but flash upgradeability is no sweat, either=relative future-proofing.

So, what's not to like?

Immediate concerns: what is the market for such a device...i.e. what would compel, say, HP to build one? They already (apparently) see the HPC as a "deep hole" into which they poured resources, to little effect (e.g. sales.) Again, I reiterate that M$'s heavy- and wrong-handed demands largely are responsible for this...but, still, overcoming HP's internal "corportate knowledge/history" is as much an impediment as anything...once bitten, and all that.

I'd say that the closest thing to real evidence of the need for a bold, new "HPC-like" product comes from a couple of impetus points--the growing perception that PPC and Palm-like devices (incl. "smartphones and Blackberries, et al.) are realtively limited in "real productivity" functionality...and, of course, that "wise folks like us" gather in this wonderful HPC Factor universe and discuss such issues...and continue to try to enhance usability in the face of no M$ support, etc.

We are, unfortunately, the self-chosen few, for now. But I don't think it's a stretch to imagine the day--not too long off--when critical mass among a bored consumer set lights a fire under the CEA to provide "the next level" in functionality...do you agree? Is my missive more than mere "hope?"

I really think that it's folks like us--"early" and "late" adopters, all (think about that "late" part...in terms of my overall argument...i.e. we arrived maybe late, and "are here" if only because the HPC gives us what we need, albeit it's sadly crippled in terms of functionality!) who will and do signal the :need for a next-gen product.

(OLED screens, Lithium-ion battery tech, the SAME KB (don't mess with a good thing!), flash-upgradeable ROM OS, tons of RAM, imbedded radio coms (and USB 2.0 and wired ethernet, etc.). I'll take a hit on CPU speed to keep the thing cool, but I DO want a decent GPU, for video/audio.

Put it all in a cool metal shell, I say, market it too the masses instead of in vertical sales channels, and it's the next iPod. I get more "oohs" and "ahhs" when I pull out my J20--even among tech-savvy folks, esp. when I show them how we keep slogging away to ensure current productivity and fun stuff...see my "NetOp" (and Streamsicle) post--to many, it seems a futuristic delight...

...to me, it seems an antiquated, "chewing gum and baling wire" hacked together ancient monstrosity. Don't get me wrong: I LOVE IT! and you, in this forum. But, sadly, mainly because it's the only damned option I got. Dammit.

Nextgen devices? More, more! I love to read your ideas and dreams and comments!

Meanwhile, to reiterate: don't get me wrong...my J720 goes everywhere with me, and I do love its antedeuvian functionality...(largely do to folks like YOU, and this forum!) I do just wish for more. 'Cause I know it's possible, with little effort...all the ducks are in a row, technologically.

(Pardon any misspellings...I'm actually writing this, in bed, on my J720 as it remotely controls my main Pc's desktop, via NetOp Remote Control, and Wi-Fi. And, I'm str)eaming some cool old Van Morrison...wow! Maybe it's not as ancient a platform, after all, if I can use it do well, and with such pleasure! Meanwhile, I'm getting about 35 wpm on this small kb, albeit hunt-and-peck...but, I love it!)

My word for the week: a "kudos" to all my friends here!

Willdao ("Will"

BTW, Snappy! and Zapper, re: the startup: I gotta hundred bucks, I'm in!

You know.. I've been looking at a PCMCIA card and thinking about possible modular architectures, when it occurs to me that it may be possible to incorporate an LCD display AS a PCMCIA card.. Let's say a Type II (T2) with the inevitable margins for the guide rails, that leaves the central area for a small screen.. How does a PC card sized LCD compare to a PPC screen? I know it will likely be smaller, but by how much? And will it be usable? What's the size of a PSP screen?

If it's usable, then maybe you can 'roll your own PPC/HPC' with modular screens. Single wide, double wide, etc. (sorry, no offense to the rednecks in the audience)

Treat it like multi-monitors. You can have separate tasks on each screen..

If you have an industry standard interface, then core and peripheral cards can be made by different manufacturers. If you're not locked into a proprietary unified device, then it should become open to competition. Prices should drop. No more of this nonsense of throwing away or selling off the whole device just because one part broke or needed an upgrade. Just get the replacement or upgrade card, not necessarily from the same manufacturer, and sell off the older card if it's still any good. I imagine many cards would be 'hydra' units. Multiple functions in one to save space. Now, what's wrong with the idea of a core card with a CF slot on top that holds the system ROM? Then a ROM upgrade is just a CF card away..

Ok, head descending from clouds now...

Ooh I like a thread were you can have a good moan about the upgrade short comings of the HPC’s (J720)
What zapper says makes a lot of common sense. Sadly common sense is not something that many marketing departments have in abundance. If the hardware manufacturer would just stick to the things they are good at, i.e. making hardware, now that would be real progress in the HPC and PPC world.
Having just a shell and everything on module cards that would be nirvana…
A card for each customer account with presentation file, history, current mails etc., ready to go at a press of button, the thought makes me feel delirious.
No more cursing and swearing, no more near hard attacks, when I discover that Active Sync. has mutilated the odd file again. My life expectancy would probably increase by 10 years.
I like many others are torn between sub-notebooks and a HPC. A HPC would be fine for 99 % of all tasks, if the applications could be upgraded or replaced completely with software you really need. Therefore pre-loading a piece of hardware like an HPC or PPC with any software apart from the BIOS is self-defeating and cuts the number of real potential users down to a small pool.
And if you drop the whole thing, which happens frequently, you would only have to buy a new shell, rip the cards out and plug it into the new shell.

Anyway I hope this module idea will be taken up at some point in the future. Technically it should not be a problem with 5 Gb storage cards already available and running processors on sub-boards is nothing new either.

Zapper, you mean like the 7/8 year old REX

ok, I am really considering dropping everything and just using a REX! ...

well, to all, yes, the technology is there and all. We just need to get those ##%% product managers/marketing folks to AWAKEN to this truth! grr

ok, maybe can we first convince SHARP to start shipping their clamshell Zaurus US/UK bound? And also at a lower $400 bucks pricing... oh wait, the older models *are* even cheaper than that already! The C860 is at ~$290 right now. grrr

ok, back to modular HPCs ...