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Li-ion Battery Regeneration??

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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-07 8:12 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-08-08 2:09 AM

well... you try telling a H/PC not to discharge quickly when you're watching a video in TCPMP


oh, well, if it gets down to 20% you just replace it with the spare battery
and that discharge isn't too fast.. 300 mA? that's nothing compared to 0.5 or 1C. (especially if you use 2400 mAh rebuilt batteries! )
can you tell me how many hours it lasts? just curious..

Edited by cmonex 2005-08-07 8:13 PM
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-08-07 8:18 PM
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1 and 3/4 plays of 'Anna and the King' (my benchmark DVD) - which is 2:13:13 long; with the display on dim and using headphones. Jornada 720. 2004 battery.
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wallythacker Page Icon Posted 2005-08-07 8:53 PM
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Well, aren't most of us here on 5-7 year old lions? Some of us on even older cells?
That debunks any 3-5 year lifetime crap.

If lions degrade 10%/year then one of my original 6651 packs must be a monster pack. It still gves 4+ hours with wifi, and since it's 5 years old it would be 1/2 original capacity of 1800mah=900mah?

So much for the 10%/year thoery, which itself contradicts the 3-5 year lifetime thing.

I'm off the read the CESD here.

BTW, those abused nicads were discharged to 0, reverse charged (by mistake), drained and properly charged and they didn't explode or die. One leaked tho'.

The nimhs that came with my Fuji camera won't hold a charge, they've always been topped up and never deep cycled, so bad QC or bad brand, I don't know. They only worked properly for about a year.

But isn't it impossbile to overcharge a lion using the charging circuit that comes with the pack? And how can a conditioner bypass the circuit in the pack? Too many questions, not enough answers
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Pete P. Page Icon Posted 2005-08-07 11:20 PM
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Yikes! You cannot OVERDISCHARGE a Lithium type battery, it CAN and WILL explode!
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sophisticatedleaf Page Icon Posted 2005-08-07 11:57 PM
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wallythacker - 2005-08-07 5:53 PM

But isn't it impossbile to overcharge a lion using the charging circuit that comes with the pack? And how can a conditioner bypass the circuit in the pack? Too many questions, not enough answers
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 6:13 AM
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wallythacker - 2005-08-08 1:53 AM
But isn't it impossbile to overcharge a lion using the charging circuit that comes with the pack? And how can a conditioner bypass the circuit in the pack? Too many questions, not enough answers
Course it's not impossible. You put your faith in a PCB not to fail.
As Pete says, you can do the reverse too, and by allowing the cells to drain out completly for much in the way of time you can trip the end of life pixie switch that will prevent it from charging back up again.

I have some 15 year old NiCad AA's, which through successive house moves got lost somewhere.
I found them a couple of weeks ago, they can't have been used for at least 9 - 10 years. Test charged a batch up, and low and behold, they work better than my 2002 1400ma NiMh's.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 11:40 AM
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wallythacker - 2005-08-08 2:53 AM

Well, aren't most of us here on 5-7 year old lions? Some of us on even older cells?
That debunks any 3-5 year lifetime crap.

If lions degrade 10%/year then one of my original 6651 packs must be a monster pack. It still gves 4+ hours with wifi, and since it's 5 years old it would be 1/2 original capacity of 1800mah=900mah?

So much for the 10%/year thoery, which itself contradicts the 3-5 year lifetime thing.

I'm off the read the CESD here.

BTW, those abused nicads were discharged to 0, reverse charged (by mistake), drained and properly charged and they didn't explode or die. One leaked tho'.

The nimhs that came with my Fuji camera won't hold a charge, they've always been topped up and never deep cycled, so bad QC or bad brand, I don't know. They only worked properly for about a year.

But isn't it impossbile to overcharge a lion using the charging circuit that comes with the pack? And how can a conditioner bypass the circuit in the pack? Too many questions, not enough answers



eheh, in fact ni-cads hate topping up! they must always be discharged fully. i hope this answers your question didn't you know about their memory effect problem? surely you know now after reading the CESD even ni-mhs have this to some extent! so don't be surprised they stopped working. but you might be able to revive them with special priming..

yeah you can't overcharge a li-ion with its charger, but you can always bypass the protection somehow..

Edited by cmonex 2005-08-08 11:42 AM
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 11:40 AM
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C:Amie - 2005-08-08 2:18 AM

1 and 3/4 plays of 'Anna and the King' (my benchmark DVD) - which is 2:13:13 long; with the display on dim and using headphones. Jornada 720. 2004 battery.


that's very poor! no wonder the other battery is better
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 11:45 AM
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C:Amie - 2005-08-08 12:13 PM

wallythacker - 2005-08-08 1:53 AM
But isn't it impossbile to overcharge a lion using the charging circuit that comes with the pack? And how can a conditioner bypass the circuit in the pack? Too many questions, not enough answers
Course it's not impossible. You put your faith in a PCB not to fail.
As Pete says, you can do the reverse too, and by allowing the cells to drain out completly for much in the way of time you can trip the end of life pixie switch that will prevent it from charging back up again.

I have some 15 year old NiCad AA's, which through successive house moves got lost somewhere.
I found them a couple of weeks ago, they can't have been used for at least 9 - 10 years. Test charged a batch up, and low and behold, they work better than my 2002 1400ma NiMh's.


i won't believe that (ni-cd better than ni-mh) unless you treated those poor ni-mhs too carelessly!
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wallythacker Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 1:33 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-08-08 6:13 AM

wallythacker - 2005-08-08 1:53 AM
But isn't it impossbile to overcharge a lion using the charging circuit that comes with the pack? And how can a conditioner bypass the circuit in the pack? Too many questions, not enough answers
Course it's not impossible. You put your faith in a PCB not to fail.
As Pete says, you can do the reverse too, and by allowing the cells to drain out completly for much in the way of time you can trip the end of life pixie switch that will prevent it from charging back up again.

I have some 15 year old NiCad AA's, which through successive house moves got lost somewhere.
I found them a couple of weeks ago, they can't have been used for at least 9 - 10 years. Test charged a batch up, and low and behold, they work better than my 2002 1400ma NiMh's.


Cmonex, some nicads never die. I wish I knew why. Supreme QC at build I guess.
I have a pair of Radio Shack 9v nicads, over 25years of age that both work great. I use them once every couple of years in my metal detector when I get the urge to treasure hunt.

I do know about memory and those nicads I have were discharged to 0.1v once a month or so. I've done the same with my Fuji nimhs to no avail (after they started short life). My RS nimhs short or deep cycle fine.

FWIW, the J565 here (lithium polymer) has been deep cycled and recharged every day or other day for the past 4 years and still maintains 90% or better runtime. It won't die.

CAmie
How do I "untrip" the EOL pixie switch in the circuit board when I do a rebuild with new cells?
I don't recall anyone here doing an "untrip" after a rebuild and their new packs charged fine.

Let's hope when methane cells emerge that OEMs make them to fit our hpcs. Then we can end this debate.

Edited by wallythacker 2005-08-08 1:56 PM
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 3:15 PM
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wallythacker - 2005-08-08 7:33 PM

Cmonex, some nicads never die. I wish I knew why. Supreme QC at build I guess.
I have a pair of Radio Shack 9v nicads, over 25years of age that both work great. I use them once every couple of years in my metal detector when I get the urge to treasure hunt.

I do know about memory and those nicads I have were discharged to 0.1v once a month or so. I've done the same with my Fuji nimhs to no avail (after they started short life). My RS nimhs short or deep cycle fine.

FWIW, the J565 here (lithium polymer) has been deep cycled and recharged every day or other day for the past 4 years and still maintains 90% or better runtime. It won't die.


i didn't say nicads die nicads and nimhs die *if* you don't fully discharge them regularly. you never discharged the nimhs properly during a whole year, and there's a limited period (some months or so) before you can no longer revive them
RS nimh's: you sometimes do full deep cycles for them, don't you? that's what matters... it's no problem if you don't do it always but you should do it regularly, according to my knowledge..
and your j565 is very interesting. i *must* mention it to one of my friends who keeps insisting on what he read about li-ions and li-pos from so-called experts.. (don't deep cycle liion/po, they're inevitably going to die within two or three years etc etc)
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gulfwindx Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 4:07 PM
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So.........I'm not to leave the HP720 in it's Cradle??? Would that be "battery topping"
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sophisticatedleaf Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 4:57 PM
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Yes.

Nicd's are special. I had a similar event to C:Amies, my 9 year old digital camera came with 3 nicd AA's. My dad thought they died and stored them, and we used alkalines instead. Then we stopped using the camera, and about 6 years later I claimed it as mine. I charged up the nicds, and they work like new, I seem to be getting almost all of the 1,000 mAh out of them.

-I like to think that the older the type of rechargable battery, the longer it lasts, and the worse for the environment. (I guess they don't dissolve as fast) So I believe lead-acid and nicd can last for extremely long amounts of time, and you can do lots to them, and they will keep working. As batteries get better for the environment (li-ion), they dissolve faster. Although, li-ion is a better kind of battery for today's uses. (And lead acid to run whatever you want on )
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wallythacker Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 6:18 PM
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How's this for weird?

A long time ago I wore lead-acid motorcycle batteries around my waist to power ham radio gear. There was nothing else even close to their capacity on the market at the time.

mmm, come to think of it , I had a couple nasty acid burns, thankfully on my *back* side
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-08-08 6:36 PM
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Wally,

I don't know how to untrip it, I wont pretend I fully understand the system involved with the charge circuit as I didn't go into detail on my research.

cmonex,

I think that the poing on the j500 is that he's not leaving the thing discharged but pulling it back up to charge properly. Also if he were fully discharging it, he'd be hard resetting it right?
The danger is in letting it fully discharge.
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