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Jornada 7xx : Hot to synchronise without cradle and calbe ?

alexpda77 Page Icon Posted 2022-04-10 1:29 PM
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So I bought and received a new/old Joranada 710 but it came alone. I just have a compact flash card. Now prices with shipment on Ebay for a cradle or even a serial cable are just crazy.

I found a website where they show the pinouts of the cradle and those on the jornada. Yesterday I tried to solder 4 wires on the 10 pins at the bottom side of the jornada, to connect a USB cable. But it doesn't work. The Jornada acknowledges a USB connection but it ends with an error. On the PC (I use it to sync my other Jornada but they are PPC), it shows the Jornada as an unknown hardware and Active Sync doesn't do anything.

I saw a picture on the inside of the cradle. HP put some resistors in front of the USB plug, but the website doesn't talk about this ... So I guess you can't directly connect a USB cable on the Jornada and except that it will work

Does anyone already tried what I'm doing, or is there any service manual both from the Jornada and it's cradle (I doubt it) ?

Except with Irda, how can I expect to synchronize without a cradle or a cable ?

My last bet is to solder a serial cable in place of the weird serial interface inside the Jornada. But I don't like the idea, a serial interface is bigger than what I can put inside the Jornada.

Thanks.

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fantablium Page Icon Posted 2022-04-10 7:56 PM
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Hi Alexpda77

welcome to the forum.

Sadly the 'USB' port at the HPC side is proprietary so you will need a schematic or a cable/cradle. There's usually a couple on ebay.
The only other option (as you already mentioned) is IR but this won't work on WMDC only on activsync on an old OS like XP or 7.

Hope you find a solution.
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alexpda77 Page Icon Posted 2022-04-10 9:24 PM
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Thx for the reply. As USB seems complicated, I'm doing a serial hack. I'm soldering the 7 wires needed from the serial port inside the jornada to 2 USB connectors that I will put inside the PCMCI port (I don't intend to use PCMCIA in the future).
Then I'll make a cable with one side a DB9 female connector, and at the other side 2 USB connectors male that will plug into the two females inside the jornada.
I'm using 2 USB connectors because I really don't see any other connector small enough to fit in the Jornada. A USB connector being 4 wires, I'm using two ...
Wish me good luck, I'm doing it right now
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dl1av Page Icon Posted 2022-04-11 10:00 AM
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So you just use "USB" for mechanical purposes?

Why don't you solder some mini-plug inside the Jornadas serial outlet (USB-C would provide enough pins for RS-232). That way you spare the pc-card-slot for something useful and on the socket at the back of the journada there is both, RS232 and USB. There even were seperate serial- and usb-cable available.

You only need the pin-layout of the jornadas socket (service-manual?)
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alexpda77 Page Icon Posted 2022-04-11 1:57 PM
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Hey thank you for the replay (not so much people interested or with knowledge about the old HP nowadays).

I wasn't aware the USB-C had more pins than the traditional USB .. Wow I feel a little bit dumb

So yes, I used the USB plug for mechanical purpose, at least I can replace it later, I just used some glue with a gun to fix the connectors. So far it's working great.




I've got the pinout of the Jornada's sockets, I don't have the one inside the cradle. From a picture inside the cradle, it looks they put some resistor or capacitor in front of the USB connector :



A straight wiring from the inside Jornada cradle socket to a USB connector don't work. It recognize a USB connection, attempts a few tries then gives an error. Jornada is not recognized too from the computer side ...

I'd be interested in the "special" serial-USB cable schematic too ...

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dl1av Page Icon Posted 2022-04-11 2:47 PM
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I do not think that the dock provides a serial-to-usb-interface. Both types of interface will be on the 10pin-JA8. The dock can be used with an RS232-cable or an USB-cable. Both have a proprietary connector the the HP-side and the usual plug on the other side.

So electrically speaking both interfaces are directly available at the JA8.

What you see on the little board above are two resistors and a spare place for some kind of diode. Maybe these are pull-up resistors for some data lines. And the diode seems to be missing so the resistors are not in use anyways.

I don´t have my dock handy so I cannot have a look inside right now. I never really used that thing, only for initial setup, and after that all is done via pcmcia-exchange.
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alexpda77 Page Icon Posted 2022-04-11 10:29 PM
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dl1av - 2022-04-11 2:47 PM

I do not think that the dock provides a serial-to-usb-interface. Both types of interface will be on the 10pin-JA8. The dock can be used with an RS232-cable or an USB-cable. Both have a proprietary connector the the HP-side and the usual plug on the other side.

So electrically speaking both interfaces are directly available at the JA8.

What you see on the little board above are two resistors and a spare place for some kind of diode. Maybe these are pull-up resistors for some data lines. And the diode seems to be missing so the resistors are not in use anyways.

I don´t have my dock handy so I cannot have a look inside right now. I never really used that thing, only for initial setup, and after that all is done via pcmcia-exchange.


What do you mean by JA8 ? Another quick name for Jornada ?
I think I tried all the possibilities to interface a USB cable on the Jornada 10 pin interface (the one that pair with the cradle), but the best I got was 6 or 7 tries to connect to active sync followed by an error.
Anyway I wanted to make this connection with Active sync because I thought that was the only possibility to install stuff which come with a Windows EXE.
Then I read today that Active Sync would generate CAB files from the EXE, is this true ? Do I have to physically connect the Jornada to the PC in order to get the CAB's ? In this case I would just drop the files into the CF card, it's by far faster than the poor serial connection.

Last but not least, what are the other options to put files into the CF card without taking it out (I'm scared the ribbon would fail one day or another) ?

Thx


Edited by alexpda77 2022-04-11 10:32 PM
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2022-04-12 9:07 AM
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ActiveSync doesn't generate CAB files. Host installers contains CAB files that get dropped onto the file system allowing ActiveSync to copy them to the device.
Once you've run the host installer, the CAB are usually on disk.

Alternatively you can extract the CAB from the host installer without even installing it.

See
https://www.hpcfactor.com/support/cesd/200056/installing_application...
https://www.hpcfactor.com/support/cesd/200051/installing_application...
https://www.hpcfactor.com/support/cesd/200052/installing_application...
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dl1av Page Icon Posted 2022-04-12 9:19 AM
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JA8 ist the name of the connector Have a look at your pcb-picture

The Windows-exe to install a program on the Jornada is a self-extracting archive. Inside are the CABs and maybe some path-information.

If you have the CAB you can bring it to the Jornada on a CF-card, click it - and the marvel begins. The program gets installed, registry-entries get set and the CAB gets deleted. All from the CAB-file.



Try some un-zipper on your EXE with a Jornada program package. If you get to the CABs than this is all you need.


Active-Sync is only needed for some first time install and for some fancy (scheduled) database backup and pc-synchronization. You may use the serial cable instead of the USB because teh USB-implementation then was so slow, there was not much improvement over RS232.
Back in the days the palmtops were used as a mobile extension to your Windows-desktop. Noone used them just standalone. When you sit at your desk, the Jornada sits in the cradle and synchronizes permanently with your desktops office stuff. When you are on the road later, your Jornada is in sync with the desktop-stuff and vice-versa.

The reason for palmtops in the nineties was that your usual desktop office stuff only ran on big and clunky notebooks. When this changed (after 2000 there came up some interesting new sub-notebooks) the palmtops quickly vanished.


Edited by dl1av 2022-04-12 9:48 AM
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alexpda77 Page Icon Posted 2022-04-12 12:47 PM
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Ah yeah JA8 is written on the board ... Well I thought that was such a pretty nickname for the Jornada

Yesterday I found the folder where the CAB's are extracted (not generated ... or whatever). This help in case Active Sync won't allow an installation because compatibility issue.

What ? The USB speed from the Jornada 7xx isn't really faster than the serial ? I thought it was because my Jornada 560 offers by far faster speeds using the USB. But it's newer by one year ...

Let's talk about the Jornada 560, it's got the same processor than my Jornada 710, but it is not video accelerated while the 7xx are ... The main difference is that one is HPC2002 and the other is HPC2000. How is that possible that everything work better and faster on the 560 ?!? I struggle to find any emulators that work full speed on the 710 (even Gameboy is slow), while the 560 have the Atari ST (CastCE) and gameboy emulator working at full speed. Before I bought the 560 I thought it would work less well than the 710 because the lack of accelerated video. But it's the contrary.

I can't find any emulators working great on my Jornada 710. Most of them were made for PPC, you can't get full screen, speed is chaotic, most of the time games are displayed on the left side of the screen ... I'm not talking about Pocket Dos, interface and menus are great, compatibility (and speed) is such an issue I was thinking about buying a license but I won't.
Is there any emulators working great on the 7xx ? I mean full speed and full screen ? Everything I tried until now is slow and very awkward.
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dl1av Page Icon Posted 2022-04-13 5:20 AM
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I get your point according speed and performance but it was a big difference back in the days when these devices were brandnew. They represent a technology of the nineties and that was a very different approach.

Today the mobile hardware is highly standardized and the technology is saturated since a few years. Nothing new to expect and the only reason for a new generation of processors is higher speed and higher performance. Else there would be no need for a new processor

Back in the days the technology was "never seen before" and was defined by the hardware because the software was not so powerful (and limited by the low performance processors).
So if you wanted new features you had to buy new chips (as a manufacturer) or a new device (as a consumer). This was the time when the today usual 24 months mobile contract was invented. Every two years you got a new phone from your provider and every two years the manufacturer came out with a completely different idea what a cellphone should do and how it has to look and to perform.

These were thrilling times and we (as early adopters) had a new technology in our hands every two years.

Today this technology is saturated and the phone from three years ago looks exactly the same as the actual one and it uses exactly the same software. New features are only software on the existing powerful hardware.


So to talk about USB. USB 1 was represented by some special hardware inside the device. It was no good idea to burden the main cpu with that (as it is today with the system-on-a-chip). So the USB-controller was connected to the main external data bus of the device and that was the bottleneck. The data are coming slower to the USBcontroller than the maximal USB-speed could have used. USB and the Jornada was mainly an advertising feature and for those folks who had some spare USB-ports in their Pentium-desktops.

The 560 has a different design approach. The supporting hardware for the chip is completely different. These are by no means "systems-on-a-chip" like todays Mediatek-processor. Back then you needed a whole supporting chipset, mainboard layout and peripherals to build a system and every manufacturer could have come up with his own ideas for that. The "processor" was just a micropocressor and you needed bus-layout, memory, clock control from external chips.
With this freedom to design the whole system (and the burden to do it) there are endless possibilities and that is the reason why there is no linear path in overall performance to see back than.

There were only a few manufacturers in that area of expertise. Today every chinese layouter can buy a development-kit from Mediatek and with a few capacitors (cannot be integrated ), a cam and maybe some transceivers he can build his phone. This is the reason for the hundreds of chinese phones from small companies you never heard of. Back in the days that was an impossible task to solve without the big business background.


The emulators I know are all crap. Mainly to show that it is possible but not really useful, sorry
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alexpda77 Page Icon Posted 2022-04-13 11:58 AM
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Wow, Thanks for the old computers and geek stuff history lesson, it brought me back straight into the golden past. You're right, everything was more exiting than it is now where everything look the same. We kind of live in a Chinese world right now.
I wish they made more Jornada's like the 6xx/7xx, and even 54x which are fantastic except they're not ARM. With the acquisition of Compaq, they really started to make crap things. The last Jornada's are somewhat in the middle, my 560 shares some good spec of the old Jornada's, but it starts feeling very plastic like most every PPC that would come after that.
I wish they made more stuff with STN displays after that, I'm probably the only one on earth to enjoy this tech Except the crappy ghosting (though I love it), it looks a lot like E Ink screens, it's easy on the eyes and I don't feel any pain like I do with TFT's.
I've now tried a lot of the emulators, and yeah, they're somehow very crappy except MorpGear and Pocket Dos. I wish I have time to port one or two but it's by far too much time consuming. Jornada 7xx seriously lack some genuine C64/Apple/Amstrad/Atari ST emulation. Such emulators are by far more interesting than the 8/16bit consoles, because they were computers and the Jornada has got a keyboard ...

Edited by alexpda77 2022-04-13 12:05 PM
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