A Call for Help: Debian.

Yes - kernel 2.6 is newer, and allows for better power management (yay!), and there should be many driver and bug fixes when it comes out for the 720. Also, a push is being made to integrate the jornada drivers into the standard 2.6 kernel, so users can just download the kernel off www.kernel.org, configure it, compile it, and copy it to their jornada!

-(Or, if they are crazy and happen to have a microdrive, they can compile it on the 720 itself!)

Well, I thought it was a good time for a progress checkin...so...

1. I removed locale data. This does not mean time zone setup, but translations of programs in different languages, and documents in different languages. I left in UK versions of english and stuff, but thats it. If you need more language stuff, you can download it yourself. Great on everything but an embedded filesystem.

Freed: 40mb

2. I removed documentation. I did not like doing this...but it was necessary. I did go out of my way to download all the MAN pages though, so this should not be a problem. Some INFO stuff also is installed. If anyone has any programs that they find documentation necessary on, post below. (By documentation, I mean readme's)

Freed: 20mb

3. I ran apt-get clean.

Freed: 70mb (Apt is ridiculous)

4. I deleted /initrd

Freed: 20mb

There is still more junk, like two versions of Perl that are the same size in one folder...I will look into it. There are also probably orphaned files that could be deleted. At least the size is under control now - I actually ran out of space on my 512mb cf! Heh...

I have added many more useful and fun programs, like wep key crackers... wep ssid finders, fortunes (only 330kb for so much...), the linux logo program that I will try to get to run at boot...and so on. A lot of great stuff. As for X, I need to compile some fonts for it, and I will see what happens from there.

sounds great! yet another reason I need to get a 720!

EDIT: 63.2 mb of libs (libraries)...there must be a way to get rid of some of those...

I guess they are just a byproduct of a variety of packages...unfortunately I cannot figure out how much the console edition would be with this stuff (I have a few graphical libraries installed already), but I want console stuff to come to a maximum of 150mb...It looks like I will clear off my 256mb cf and load the console edition I released and modify it to the way that it should be now...

I know there is still a lot more space to be saved.

Edited by ProgramSynthesiser 2005-08-19 12:49 AM

Well, I just made a decision. It would be best if I go back to the debian 3.0 base once again, to do everything right this time. (As in, making everything very small, not screwing up the MTA because apt sucks....installing ipkg.... ) The only problem is that I do not know how much more my cf can take! I am trying to get a mircrodrive into my hands, but money is short with also needing a pcmcia ethernet card, new batteries, and 2 $5 pci ethernet cards for the pentium..

Try to aim for a 16MB rom or less. That way, you can still have 16MB of memory for apps ... do I make sense?

Considering that a Zaurus has a full pda rom in 16mb flash rom for a 5500, and it has opera in it.

All in all, PS, great work! ... btw, did I miss something or is there a screenshot somewhere?

Snappy!, this is Debian we are talking about. 16mb is not going to happen.

Sure, other systems can fit in 16mb, but are they as full-featured?

I am aiming for 100mb for console, 256 for X. X does not take up that much space, but the X release will have a _lot_ of stuff. Same with the console...it might be 128 (max).

To get it to 16 would require starting with a lightweight distro, which Debian is not, and Familiar is. (I believe Jlime is a derivative of this)

A problem with the apt packaging system is that it installs way too much. I will install ipkg, but in order to update the system to Debian 3.1 (which is necessary), I need apt. In this process a lot of extra junk is installed, but it seems that if I deleted any of this, bad things would happen.

If anyone wants to post any knowledge of slimming down Linux, it would be appreciated.

EDIT: Whoops. Pictures are here: http://programsynth.homelinux.net/debian-jornada.html

Edited by ProgramSynthesiser 2005-08-27 4:26 PM

Yes, I remember that its Debian ... ... so remind me, what are you trying to do with your 720 again? Are you on the same track as Corporate with his 790, trying to get NetBSD to be a wince replacement or are you trying to run a web server on your 720?

Incidentally, you can run a web server on wince native, on Zaurus with the Sharp rom or OpenZaurus which comes in at 16MB. Granted, OpenZaurus can have apps installed in the external media as well, so its the base OS that I am talking about.

The base OS for Zaurus is only 16MB in the flash rom, although I believe its unzipped into around 30+mb or more.

Anyway, happy to see you make progress and hope to see you finalize a build that an end-user can just download and install, without having to look around for fixes and patches.

PS, why don't you just upload your pix into the forum? Your site is not running again.

Hey snappy!... give him a break... PS you are starting over again? How large of a CF card do you need? I know they have come down in price, and I'm sure you can find one as a back up. I know yours is almost worn out

Yes, Yoldering, my cf is indeed on its way to a slow and painful (for me) death. I know I have not checked in for a bit, and missed this thread completely, but the project will not end until it is finished. Trying to make the pentium a router has gotten in the way currently - I need that done, but NAT or the ip route command is not my thing.

Anyways, it looks like I will be spending all my money on a microdrive to continue without constant worry. It is just my luck that my comptech teacher gave me a 5 dollar network card I cannot afford.

-The blackberry's browser is ok, but Yoldering's icon fills the entire screen.

Oh, sorry about my site everyone (and Snappy ). Why is it usually down? Because it runs on my pc. Why is it REALLY down now? Because until I get the pentium set up for hosting the site (which would take a few seconds) and set up to route to my pc (which may take a long time) I will not be setting up the site. Routing is priority, and it is important that I learn it.

Also, although I have left the pentium on for 1 day, 7 hours and 16 minutes now - by seeing how long it can stay on, I know I will end up shutting it off very soon. Why? Because it is in a stupid Vaio plastic case with no room for a fan. When I get a new case with a very slow moving fan (I just need ventilation, really), it will be on for weeks to months at a time. And then I can concentrate on the nfs server for helping me set up Debian for the 720, the irc server, the site, ftp, EVERYTHING! Yes, including running naim for weeks in a row without signing off. (And an irc client). The best is yet to come , so just wait, and the second I figure out some sort of way to route and get a case that relieves me of the fear of my home going up in flames, there will be many good things coming.

-No, I will not get a router. (I want the pentium to close off my pc from the internet, and to access stuff through it - just a kind of cool security thing).

Do take a look at what's going on on the handhelds.org website - someone has just released a userspace for the 720 that I have yet to try... Jlime userspace must be "real soon now", too

Also, there's a lot of stuff already compiled for ARM in a debian feed for the Zaurus, so you might be in luck with regards to getting ipkg files from another source. I can't see why this wouldn't work with the debian that you're creating. Check out zaurususergroup.org forums, and also xqt.sourceforge.jp which is X for the QT environment of the Zaurus.

I think you will struggle with 32MB of memory, but it is possible - see what can be done with the Zaurus 5000D, as that is a 32MB machine.

On the choice between GPE and Opie, I must admit that I'd lean towards GPE because of the full X environment, whereas Opie uses Qtopia framebuffer which is a little more limiting. However, Opie will sync with Outlook - something GPE cannot currently do, and Opie is probably more friendly with a smaller memory environment to play with.

I was (and still am) interested in a clamshell Zaurus, but to get an idea of whether I like the OS and design etc, I have bought a cheap second hand SL5500. If you're really interested in seeing what can be done with Linux on a handheld, it might give you inspiration for what to aim for in the 720 world if you have a play with the Z range?

My apologies if I am telling you things you already know

Jlime is on the way of getting 2.6 kernel working on the Jornada 720. Maybe that you could use that Kernel for the Debian port or even join forces to port it.

By the way, Debian has ARM versions of his binary packages, would that packages be usable on the Jornada directly after installing with apt-get or will we have to compile every app that we would use on the Jornada?

I'm looking forward your progress!

Lol, I have no need to look at other userspaces, even Jlimes, as my entire point is different than theirs. I want a full-featured userspace, with as much as possible for console in 128mb (the apt cache just pushes it over...), and graphics in 256-512mb. As far as memory, I will be using xserver-kdrive, which will not be a problem. Same with opie, gpe, matchbox..and so on. I will be compiling ipkg for the 720, or using Jlimes when their userspace is up. I am still pretty annoyed with the whole Pine mail system situation though, because all of my cross-compilers are missing the -lncurses library. So I will probably end up installing a ton of junk on my 720 when I get the microdrive, compile, save to multiple locations.. , and then format my microdrive and start at the point of usefulness again.

I now have enough money for a microdrive, I just need to take a trip to Fry's and buy one.

-As far as the site situation, it is the same, but now I have a lot more time to work on it. Hopefully (probably at my speed) I will learn what I need to and get my site up by tuesday (or wednesday, monday...sometime. ). However, it will be some time until I can get a proper case for my pentium, so I will have to shut it off after either 1 or 2 days. Its current uptime is 2 days, 3 hours and 35 minutes, but that is probably the most I will leave it on. I know it could be on for much longer, but I do not want the parts to age because of heat buildup (the journaled file system is keeping me from suspending the drive). Eventually I will get everything the way I like it, and work on bandwidth restrictions. (I don't think the pentium would last long if it got 1.5mb/sec of information constantly)

EDIT: Lol, of course the arm packages from apt work. That is why I was so big on getting internet working - I knew the second I had a connection, most of my problems would be solved. But ipkg has some advantages, which is why I will install it and recommend it over apt. For one, it will not have 10mb in lists (I hope). Secondly, it will not build up 70mb in cache. Lastly, it will give access to packages that Jlime is using. I am trying to make the system as usable as possible, and adding another package system, especially one designed for portable devices, will make things a lot better. I was going to add slackware and rpm support too, but they do not have arm packages (at least not ones that were made within the past 4 years...)

Note that this is going to be as up-to-date as possible, and if I see anything that needs updating and there is not a deb or ipkg for it, I will try to compile it myself. Now if I could just figure out how to add more libraries to the cross compiler...I could compile whatever I want - and it would be much easier for me to shape this system into what I think is best. (Not fully debian)

Edited by ProgramSynthesiser 2005-09-02 10:55 PM