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SURVEY: Gathering information for an argument about informal communications

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Alt Bass Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 2:45 PM
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SURVEY TIME

Hypothetical scene: two people are discussing the recent event. Person 1 has displayed exceptional presence of mind in said stressful event. Person 2 is admiring Person 1. Person 2 asks, exactly:
"What does it take to be so fulfilled?"

Two questions for you:
1) Have you grown up in english speaking country or have you lived more than 10 years in english speaking country?
2) Original answers only: please rephrase the question Person 2 asked using more words so that it reflects your interpretation (which is the first to come to mind) of the question clearly.

You can use SPOILER to hide your answer.

I need your answers to prove somebody is wrong on the internet so this has utmost importance. I will then explain the matter later when you post some answers.
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 3:31 PM
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1) I grew up in Japan but attended an international school. The spoken language there was English.

2) I don’t quite get the question, but I’ll try my best. “What is your secret in living life happily? Is it money? Is it fame? Friends? Is it spiritual?”

Edited by stingraze 2023-09-13 3:32 PM
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thenzero Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 3:44 PM
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1. Yes
Show spoiler...

2. The question is phrased oddly. On the surface it seems to intend to ask..."what is your secret that allows you to be so cool under pressure?" but the use of the word "fulfilled" instead of something more direct like "cool under pressure" or "calm in this situation" lends it a soupçon of "it must be nice to have had such a good life that you are able to be cool under pressure" with a whiff of resentment. This is with the giant caveat that it's written text and if spoken a certain way aloud, it would absolutely lose that second part or have it emphasized strongly, depending on the intonation.


edit: added spoiler tags

Edited by thenzero 2023-09-13 3:51 PM
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 4:04 PM
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But if the person did have a good life all along, would the person still have been able to be fulfilled as in cool under pressure? Isn’t something in life such as hardship that makes somebody cool in such circumstances?
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thenzero Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 4:10 PM
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Quote
But if the person did have a good life all along, would the person still have been able to be fulfilled as in cool under pressure? Isn’t something in life such as hardship that makes somebody cool in such circumstances?


Er, you certainly could be right about that but it's not in the text itself; "fulfilled" in no way means "cool under pressure." So in order to understand this phrase you have to infer the connection that fulfilled -> cool under pressure and that's what I'm keying off.

Edit: meaning the goal here is to analyze the speaker's intent, not whether philosophically being fulfilled implies cool under pressure.



Edited by thenzero 2023-09-13 4:17 PM
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 4:20 PM
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Thanks for the explanation. English is sometimes hard, especially when there are cross-cultural aspects that common sense / ground and what one expects to infer are different from the norm of the region one lives in.

Edited by stingraze 2023-09-13 4:24 PM
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torch Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 4:50 PM
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1-Yes, born/raised in the United States
2-I admire your ability to get results done when the odds are against you. Do you have some pointers for how you do it?

Also: I rarely use the word fulfill, but to me without knowing the full context, fulfill sounds a little insulting in this scenario (even if that was not your intent)


Edited by torch 2023-09-20 6:14 PM
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thenzero Page Icon Posted 2023-09-13 4:53 PM
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stingraze - 2023-09-14 11:20 AM




Thanks for the explanation. English is sometimes hard, especially when there are cross-cultural aspects that common sense / ground and what one expects to infer are different from the norm of the region one lives in.


Yes, 100%. Did I mention I'm learning Japanese currently?
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2023-09-14 12:41 AM
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thenzero - 2023-09-14 1:53 AM


stingraze - 2023-09-14 11:20 AM




Thanks for the explanation. English is sometimes hard, especially when there are cross-cultural aspects that common sense / ground and what one expects to infer are different from the norm of the region one lives in.


Yes, 100%. Did I mention I'm learning Japanese currently?


Nice! Ganbatte Kudasai.
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thenzero Page Icon Posted 2023-09-14 1:19 AM
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Ganbarimasu!
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Alt Bass Page Icon Posted 2023-09-18 6:25 PM
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I am still accepting answers!

Meanwhile, the argument is:

Show spoiler...
There is a video with explicit text: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50nlHgRYp1I

And there is an equally explicit translation made with a fresh ML model: https://t.me/lackprison/18610

FYI the model is made by Heygen Labs.

The general gist of the original video is that a human records a video reply to somebody which consists of detailing how non-existent his appreciation for masculine social status symbols is.

The original russian phrase is: "? ? ????? ???????? ????????? ?????????????, ??? ? ??? ????? ?? ??? 100 ?????????? ?????????? ??? ???????? ?? ?????????? ????? ?? ??????."

Somehow this is forum which does not support Unicode. So here is a Pastebin link: https://pastebin.com/XkFGKaam

To begin with, this original phrase is illiterate if taken at face value. If relaxed language rules were applied that would mean "I have gained knowledge as complete as if I was living for eternity in trillions of same worlds as Earth".

The translation by HeyGen is: "I in my knowledge have become so fullfilled that as if already a hundred trillion billion years I've been living on trillions and trillions of the same planets."

My argument is that the translation fails miserably by using the phrase "fulfilled in my knowledge" because there is no meaningful connection between the word "fulfill" and the rest of the phrase.

My opponent claims that it is a reasonable enough translation which a lot of native speakers would understand and using their college education in linguistics as an argument.


Edited by Alt Bass 2023-09-18 6:33 PM
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thenzero Page Icon Posted 2023-09-18 6:36 PM
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I would definitely agree with you, that is a terrible mistranslation of the idiomatic meaning of the phrase as you have outlined it. (But I have no way of knowing if it might be a decent literal translation).

I wonder if this AI may have been trained on public domain text that includes archaic use of that word to mean "filled up" instead of "content, happy" as it means in modern usage...

p.s. on the other hand, I think it is a delightful mental image- acquiring vast amounts of knowledge on uncountable worlds in the quest to become fulfilled...seems like a good premise for a scifi story....



Edit: spoiler tags...

Edited by thenzero 2023-09-18 6:46 PM
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Alt Bass Page Icon Posted 2023-09-18 7:48 PM
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IMO it's much simpler than you suggest. Machine Learning is not General Artificial Intelligence, so if you ask wrong question it will happily give plausible wrong answer. Since the input is illiterate it is unreasonable to expect anything valuable from such a model. Producing good translation which I suggested requires understanding of the subject and connections between objects of speech.


Edited by Alt Bass 2023-09-18 7:50 PM
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stingraze Page Icon Posted 2023-09-20 8:45 AM
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I stopped watching the English translated video part way since it was pretty offensive, but...
What is the point of it? Is it to see how much progress the machine translation has become?

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Alt Bass Page Icon Posted 2023-09-20 12:07 PM
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The original russian video is popular as a joke.
The translated video shows how seamless the translation looks when face movements are adapted to voice and voice characteristics are preserved in generated audio.
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