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Help for Wifi Card Problems

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bruisedquasar Page Icon Posted 2005-08-22 9:42 PM
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I really did not know much about wifi cards until recently and I still have some research to do before I feel I have a firm practical grip on the subject. I see a lot of posts expressing frustration trying to get a card that works and getting cards to work that supposedly work on user's handhelds. Being an autodicdact, I have a system of attack I employ on any subject I tackle.

I think I have some hints that will help a lot of non-experts get ON with getting connected.

Before you buy a card, new or used, find out the (radio) chipset. This is a task easier said than done. Most card makers intentionally make it hard to impossible to find out the chipset. Manufacturers, all of them, constantly change chipsets and do not indicate what chipset is in a batch of new cards. Even within models and within a model year, chipsets often differ. So, because a particular model had the famous Prism chipset a few months ago or even a month ago that does not mean that model still contains Prism or the specific one you get will contain Prism (or Orinoco)

Do not expect to get help with what chipset is inside a particular model and make from the manufacturer. No, things are not so chaotic at the plants that no one knows. This is a refusal to support consumers and we need to write letters of complaint about this to our elected representatives and to the FCC. Yes, the FCC. I will explain why shortly.

Fast Run Down on the Prism Chipset
First, major techs in the industry side of things advise people to try to buy a Lucent/Agere/Avaya/Proxim Orinoco Silver or Orinoco Gold. Note: The Orinoco_cs driver does not support monitor mode. Passive monitoring tools like Kismet require monitor mode capability. Supposedly there are patches for orinoco_cs that allow monitoring. If you wish to not use a patch, the word is go with a Prism or Atheros-based card.

Chipsets
Many vendors sell wi-fi hardware but radio chipsets come from a small set of manufacturers. An excellent resource is Hewlet Packard tech Jean Tourrilhes website. He runs a comprehensive site that includes his famous "Wireless LAN How-to" You find his page at [hpl.hp.com/personal/jean_tourrilhes/Linux] Once there click on main page to get the basic index. Tourilhes may be the leading expert on wifi cards.
You may be able to identify the chipset that is in your card from the information Tourilhes has gathered. If push comes to shove, you might want to try to get data on your card from the FCC site, using the FCC ID number on the card. [fcc.gov/oet/fccid]. I could not get the chipset there for a sandisk connect plus 128MB card but sandisk apparantly is one of the firms that is not exactly in compliance with FCC regulations.

All you need do is enter the FCC ID as instructed. Leave the other stuff blank. Click on "Operational Data" from the information you get. You click on the door mailbox looking icon in line with the pdf document you want.

There are in total 50 chipset makers. The five most popular make and sell 80% or more of all wifi cards: Compaq, Nokia, Proxim, D-Link, Linksys, Netgear, SMC and Senao/Engenius. All of them use other makers chipsets as well as their own. Something unethical occurs in this industry. Many models and units remain labelled with the same name and part number eventhough the chipset is changed and can change throughout the year(s). An example one expert uses is the D-Link DWL-650
Initially the DWL-650 came with the famous Prism II chipset but version 2 has a very different ADMtek chipset.

Industry insiders say, buyers have a good chance of finding an 802.11b card that is supposed to have a Prism II chipset but you cannot count on any specific card actually containing Prism II !!

A firm named Harris created the Prism I standard for 802.11. It is 802.11 only. The famous prism is the Prism II. At one time, it was the most used and most popular 802.11b chipset. Intersil licensed the chipset AND name to many vendors, Several of them eventually based their own product on Prism design. These firms include: Lucent, Symbol, and Aironet & Cisco but their "Prism"s employed different hardware and ARE NOT COMPATIBLE with the real Prism II drivers.

SOME CARDS APPEAR TO WORK BUT THE DRIVER WILL NOT LOAD. The card may APPEAR TO FUNCTION PARTLY OR LIGHTS UP AND DOESN'T WORK AT ALL.

Similar stories abound for Orinoco chipsets. Originally WaveLan brand, the company is now Orinoco of Lucent. Lucent then spun off Orinoco into a separate firm named Agere which sells Prism and Orinoco chipset cards. Lucent spun off still another firm named Avaya which sells Orinoco chipset cards. Product sales of Orinoco was then acquired by Proxim. Agere still makes the chipsets. So, Lucent, Agere, & Avaya brands use the Orinoco chipset. Other brands that use Orinoco: Enterasya, Els, Beffalo, HP, IBM, Dell, Sony, and Compaq. All of them also use other chipsets!

In sumary, you cannot go by a user saying he bought so and so card and used such and such driver and it works in his Handheld just fine! This does not mean you can buy the same card and have the same results.

I would not fall for sellers telling you a particular card will work. Many salesmen will tell you anything. I would not fall for a promise you can return the card, unless you buy it from a respectable physical local store like Circuit City. Returning anything to an online store, off an eBay vendor, mail order period, means you paid shipping and handling. You will pay return postage and most likely a restocking fee and suddenly no one knows of any tech or salesman named Bill or "Bill should not have told you that"

I am not going to waste any more money myself. I have a nice new $129 list Sandisk connect plus 128MB card I got for $26.00 and now I know why and I know why Eagle Computer site and an Eagle tech falsely confirmed the card works with Casio BE300 & E-200, Linux and all CE devices. I get the card and Sandisk makes clear on the package that it is a PPC 2002, 2003 and above and Windows 98 ---- card. Fortunately, I can use the card on my Linux run Compaq Notebook.

I have completely checked out the Ambicom 802.11b low power PDA card Tigerdirect is selling for $59.00. Ambicom states in writing that the card is Prism II chipset and the CD includes all the drivers.

The LAN techs I spoke with agree with me that the chipset confusion is probably intentional. As usual, its about money. The end product makers buy what chipsets they can get cheapest at the time and the classic Prism II chipset is not the cheap route.

By the way a free program written for Linux, by Tourrilhes called "Wireless Tools" will tell what chipset is in a card but you must have a Linux system to use it. The program is standard issue with the newer releases of the major Linux distros.

I discovered my new Sandisk card has a Z-Com chipset. Sandisk support, by the way, dealt with my query about the chipset by not replying at all. I didn't know Z-COM had a chipset. I can hack Linux to drive it but not my NEC 780 or 790, Jornada or BE-300. Incidently, I discovered the chipset by looking over the internal photos sandisk had to submit to the FCC.

I also discovered from the FCC site that my Netgear 802.11g USB adapter uses a Z-Com chipset. I got lucky. My particular Netgear USB has Prism II. Now, I know why my USB adapter works to easily and so well but I read posts everywhere expressing hate for Netgear USB adapter. They got the off the wall Z-Com.

Again, before buying a card, I would look over Jean Tourrilhes site.
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Jean_Tourrilhes/Linux/#howto


---Bruised
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wallythacker Page Icon Posted 2005-08-22 11:01 PM
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On the other hand certain cards were and will aways be prism powered, or if not, the community news is widespread. All WPC11 pre v3 are prism, AFAIK, the Netgear MA401 is all prism. There are others not coming to name right now that are and have been prism.

Dlink, IMO, is the worst offender. IIRC, some of their cards have 4 revisions, all with different radios. Belkin isn't much better with the f5d6020. 3 versions and only the first is prism.

I've always made it a point to get prism based cards. I do have two spectrum based cards, but they were lucky fluke purchases when I was a noob. It just happens they have good CE drivers available. I like the blinking LED to indicate data rates. I wish the prisms had that feature.

But, if I spend $10 online to buy a card that might be prism and it isn't it's no great loss. I've enough associates that will buy if off me, so I'm out nothing. I've been tempted for a combo cf wifi / flash card like your Sandisk, but I know otherwise now.

actually bruised, I'll offer to buy the combo sandisk card from you . I have a perfect use for it. PM me if you're interested in selling it.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-23 12:48 AM
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bruised, very nice summary about wlan chipsets

about the sandisk connect wifi+128 mb: it is prism based (works with prism drivers), i don't know where you read about z-com.
what's more it works on a jornada 720. (you need one of the original sandisk drivers *and* a plain prism driver for example hawking from the HCL)
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2005-08-23 6:32 AM
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I think it's a controller + a prism chipset + z-com firmware chip, hence there being a z-com chip in any photo.

If you are a new CE user and are now terrified at the thought of CE and WiFi, please understand that a lot of the anecdotal evidence that would suggest to reinforce the above is mainly down to people falling into the space of not having auto configuration (zero-config) on the CE side.
Most problems with any CF/PC Card that we see can be solved in one of three ways
1) Helping you get the correct configuration
2) Sliding you over to a reference driver - many drivers on the OEM CD's are hazardous to human health
3) Sliding you up / down the driver scale to get you on a driver that matches the print time of the controller chip.

Also be aware that a lot of the chipsets we encounter with Prism are 2.5 not 2.0.
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takwu Page Icon Posted 2005-08-23 9:38 PM
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C:Amie - 2005-08-23 3:32 AM
If you are a new CE user and are now terrified at the thought of CE and WiFi, please understand that a lot of the anecdotal evidence that would suggest to reinforce the above is mainly down to people falling into the space of not having auto configuration (zero-config) on the CE side.

Oh I just remembered a comment I made to a friend. He is a computer guy like me, and after I explained to him how I needed to pick a compatible WiFi card for my Jornada (at the time), he quickly frowned about it. I then pointed out that, considering when the platforms (HPC Pro and HPC 2000) were released, it was a nice surprise that you could even add WiFi at all.

Some WiFi cards today are incompatible with Windows 98 or ME too. No Palms could do WiFi until Sony made that ultra expensive NV90 or something. And even a few PPCs couldn't get external WiFi, for the lack of a compatible CF slot or at least USB host (Casio EM500 anyone?). The point is, an HPC Pro that can WiFi is simply awesome compared to most devices of that age. So let's not forget that when we work so hard to get it to connect, k?

BTW (sorry to brag again) the Sandisk does ZeroConfig on my Smartbook
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-23 9:59 PM
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takwu - 2005-08-24 3:38 AM

Oh I just remembered a comment I made to a friend. He is a computer guy like me, and after I explained to him how I needed to pick a compatible WiFi card for my Jornada (at the time), he quickly frowned about it. I then pointed out that, considering when the platforms (HPC Pro and HPC 2000) were released, it was a nice surprise that you could even add WiFi at all.

Some WiFi cards today are incompatible with Windows 98 or ME too. No Palms could do WiFi until Sony made that ultra expensive NV90 or something. And even a few PPCs couldn't get external WiFi, for the lack of a compatible CF slot or at least USB host (Casio EM500 anyone?). The point is, an HPC Pro that can WiFi is simply awesome compared to most devices of that age. So let's not forget that when we work so hard to get it to connect, k?

BTW (sorry to brag again) the Sandisk does ZeroConfig on my Smartbook


is zeroconfig enough? then it would work on my sig3 too. good to know.
anyway i don't know why it's bragging if you tell us the sandisk works on the smartbook. it's a good thing for sure that it works.

palm: if they don't have built-in wifi (and 95% of palmone devices don't...), the only hope is the only one model of sdio wifi and it doesn't work on all models... well... hpc's are much better consider that even CE 2.0 can do wifi. i just picked up my wifi card (the senao) wasn't sure if it will work on hpc2000.. and it works on even CE 2.0
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takwu Page Icon Posted 2005-08-23 10:37 PM
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Well at first I didn't like the idea of ZeroConfig, because it just doesn't show some information that you get from, say, MiniStumbler. After a few hotspots tho, I realize that it does everything I really need, and nothing I don't. So maybe it misses some things I might want, but that is proven unnecessary. The interface is plain and simple, and it all makes sense now

However, I haven't tried the Sandisk driver under 4.1, so I don't know if the Sig3 can do that?

The Sony Palm model I referred to was the convertible portrait clamshell with a "serious" camera, and it was black It was the ONLY Palm device to ever have a CompactFlash slot AFAIK. Sony made a CF WiFi card for it, but no one else has bothered to make a Palm driver for other CF WiFi cards. And I believe that was the first ever Palm device that had WiFi too. Still a lot newer than most HPCs tho.

So even the HPC running CE 2.0 can have WiFi, wow.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-23 11:00 PM
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hm zeroconfig is really nice, i have to agree. i no longer need vxutil nor ministumbler nor pocketwinc. i needed vxutil to get IP information and ping, etc., i needed ministumbler /pocketwinc for ssid's and the latter for ip renew also.
sigmarion 3 can do zeroconfig yeah (so not only ce.net 4.2), probly the sandisk would work too especially as i have already tried another wifi card that uses zeroconfig (it doesn't have another config app).

palm just plain *sucks*. sorry if i've just hurt anyone's feelings
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msimmons Page Icon Posted 2005-08-24 1:58 PM
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cmonex - 2005-08-22 11:48 PM

bruised, very nice summary about wlan chipsets

about the sandisk connect wifi+128 mb: it is prism based (works with prism drivers), i don't know where you read about z-com.
what's more it works on a jornada 720. (you need one of the original sandisk drivers *and* a plain prism driver for example hawking from the HCL)

you wouldn't happen to know how to get it working for a journada 680e would you?
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-08-24 2:33 PM
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no it won't run on a j680 sorry
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msimmons Page Icon Posted 2005-08-24 4:38 PM
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well for the price it still works as a decent memory card (in theroy, haven't used yet)
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Murmas
Murmas Page Icon Posted 2005-09-08 4:37 AM
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Hi Cmonex,

is it possible to get a tutorial for the Sandisk Sandisk CF WiFi + 128mb card to get it working on a HP Jornada 720? With drivers form Sandisk an Hawing Tech, where to get them, hints on installing, etc.)

Thank You in advance!

Andreas
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2005-09-08 4:16 PM
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humm... you should ask dazz (a forum member here), i never had this card. you can get the hawking driver from hpcfactor.com/hcl and sandisk driver from sandisk's site. there's already a thread on all this anyway. search for it.
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Trogon Driver
Trogon Driver Page Icon Posted 2005-09-11 2:47 PM
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I still use an early (b/w) Trogon/Everex WinCE 2.0 system (MIPS 4000) and would like to use my prism-equipped-SanDisk CF: I have been, however, unable to find a working driver, and noticed that you had luck with the Senao. Their site has no 2.0 drivers; might you have a link to direct me?

THX!
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Jornada Driver
Jornada Driver Page Icon Posted 2005-09-11 2:50 PM
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I tried every prism driver under the sun (I can type .dll faster than any living soul now), to no avail. I finally capitulated and got a Netgear CF for my 6XX and it works great. ...Live is too short to squander it on firmware quests...

Paul
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