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DSTN screens are evil

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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-03-23 6:43 PM
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jornada720 - 2006-03-24 12:19 AM
What? There were once a replacement? Wow.

Could someone tell me how a TFT differs from a DSTN? Is it just the refresh rate?


yes but it didn't work out...

TFT is also more clear, the pics on it, etc.
said to be usually more readable in sunlight but i'm not so sure... i have several TFT pda's and none is too good in sunlight. maybe the sig3 is the best of them in this respect, it does like direct sunlight, the bquare phh and zaurus c760 hate it, as for intermec no chance to try it yet. i will soon, we've started having more sunny days again
oh and my J728 manages just fine in sunlight just not when it is direct. same for my 900c.
so, essentially there are several types of TFT's and only one or two are really good outside too.
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Snake Page Icon Posted 2006-03-23 11:10 PM
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jornada720 - 2006-03-23 6:19 PM

What? There were once a replacement? Wow.

Could someone tell me how a TFT differs from a DSTN? Is it just the refresh rate?


DSTN - Dual-layer Super-Twist Nematic

It is a development of standard single-layer LCD devices. On an LCD each layer of Liquid Crystal can "twist" (polarize) light only to a certain degree angle. DSTN has 2 layers to double the angle the light rays going through are twisted on axis. By Twisting twice as far, as there are twice as many layers doing the twisting, more contrast is available due to the front/rear polarizers being able to do a more efficient, effective job.

TFT Thin Film Transistor

This is a radically different technology at the basis, versus DSTN or standard displays.

DSTN and "standard" single layer displays are passive. The LCD controllers are external and address the display - draw images on the display - in a row/column format. Wires go horizonatally and make columns, wires go vertically and make rows, and where the wires cross is a pixel of LCD. The external controller charges, and can only charge, 1 row or column at a time, then it cycles through the cross opposing wires to draw an entire column or row. It then charges the next column/row and repeats the process.

This means the external controller refreshes the screen in "swipes" - 1 row/column at a time until the entire screen is completed. This has the side effect of the fact that the row/columns are only turned on - active - during their instantaneous refresh. The rest of the time the pixel is actually turned "off" and the LCD twist decays slightly until the next refresh. This limits the total amount of light transmitted through the screen, as the Liquid Crystal only (fully) transmits light during the refresh addressing. Other times it is "flickering" as the LCD twist slightly decays.

TFT is different - it is "active". Each pixel has the transistor that controls it - turns it on, or off - directly behind it. The screen is a huge matrix of transistors with an LCD panel attached. Once the external controller tells a pixel to activate the transistor turns on and stays on until turned off - no decay. While the transistor takes up a certain amount of space behind the pixel, thereby blocking that portion of the light from going through the pixel, the net increase in light transmitted due to the pixel not "flickering" more than offsets the amount of light blocked by the switching transistor blocking a certain portion of that light. Therefore a TFT display is much brighter than a DSTN.

Also, since the controller only sends "turn on" or "turn off" signals to the panel and each pixel, in essence, controls the power to turn itself on or off the transistor / pixel pair operates much faster than a DSTN display. A DSTN display controller sends power to the pixels and that takes more time, as the power level and duration must be high and long enough to activate the Crystal to the level desired until the next refresh. A TFT sends a much lower-level "on" or "off" signal and the TFT transistor is responsible for keeping the Crystal supplied with the proper signal until told otherwise.

The transistors in a TFT are responsible for the "yield" and "dead pixels" you hear about regarding modern LCD displays - a large display can have millions of TFT transistors and each one must work otherwise you get a dead zone. Sometimes the transistor locks at "off" and you get a "dead pixel", other times the transistors locks at "on" and you get a "hot" pixel. Too many dead pixels found during the test after production gets the TFT panel (rear substrate, actually) scrapped and lowers the facility's total yield.

Late DSTN displays were being split into 2 "fields" to increase refresh rates - each half of the display would be refreshed separately and therefore the equivalent refresh rate doubled (even though, actually, the clock frequency was the same).

It is technically possible for a DSTN to have the same color reproduction abilities as a TFT but at a lower brightness output. Most times a DSTN display is reduced in color depth, versus a TFT, to increase brightness - color depth in LCD's is created by "time dithering", switching the pixel on and off in order to control the amount of light passing through the Crystal. A DSTN "technically" could accomplish this but only with a fast, external controller, multiple fields and (much) lower light outputs; the controller would be spending more time dithering versus refreshing the entire panel (remember that the Crystal would revert back to it's normal state, blocking light, as the refresh is slowed down).
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Snake Page Icon Posted 2006-03-23 11:13 PM
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OH! Forgot to mention - the reason why HPC / PDA's have DSTN.

Power.

Since on a TFT each pixel has a transistor there are a lot of transistors soaking up a lot of power (loss). A DSTN passive screen "only" has the main controller - no TFT transistor panel sitting behind the screen.
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CardBoardCrusader Page Icon Posted 2006-03-24 1:43 AM
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Believe it or not, I actually prefer DSTN on HPCs. Less power consumption, and besides, it feels so much more friendly, and comforting. Just like they looked when I first saw them at Fry's...
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wallythacker Page Icon Posted 2006-03-24 6:22 AM
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I'm with you CBC. I'm so used to DSTN on my 640x240 hpcs anything else would seem weird.

The 6651s are another story. DSTN on them would be ugly. Their TFT is superb and I can read them easily outdoors.

I owned a Compaq 1230 laptop once. It had the worst screen I've ever seen on a laptop. Utter garbage compared to a same era IBM or Toshiba laptop.
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-03-24 8:02 AM
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Snake - 2006-03-24 5:10 AM

DSTN - Dual-layer Super-Twist Nematic

It is a development of standard single-layer LCD devices. On an LCD each layer of Liquid Crystal can "twist" (polarize) light only to a certain degree angle. DSTN has 2 layers to double the angle the light rays going through are twisted on axis. By Twisting twice as far, as there are twice as many layers doing the twisting, more contrast is available due to the front/rear polarizers being able to do a more efficient, effective job.


wow thanks for the long & detailed explanation

my question... how do i recognize if a hpc has DSTN or just STN? and what is CSTN?

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CardBoardCrusader - 2006-03-24 7:43 AM

Believe it or not, I actually prefer DSTN on HPCs. Less power consumption, and besides, it feels so much more friendly, and comforting. Just like they looked when I first saw them at Fry's...


me too somehow easier on the eye sometimes and the better ones can be OK outdoors too... (except of course in direct sunlight but then who wants to be sitting in direct sunlight?)

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wallythacker - 2006-03-24 12:22 PM

I'm with you CBC. I'm so used to DSTN on my 640x240 hpcs anything else would seem weird.

The 6651s are another story. DSTN on them would be ugly. Their TFT is superb and I can read them easily outdoors.

I owned a Compaq 1230 laptop once. It had the worst screen I've ever seen on a laptop. Utter garbage compared to a same era IBM or Toshiba laptop.



6651: strange that you say this, someone else complained he couldn't see the TFT of the 6651 outdoors. same about the J720's, many people complain, i haven't tried mine because i used it outside only in a winter before getting my J728 (since then J720 stays at home, using it as a testmachine) - and the J728 is OK ourdoors. i will get a chance soon to try my 6651 - i got it in winter... starting to get the sunny days only now..

what kind of screen did the compaq have, dstn or tft?

Edited by cmonex 2006-03-24 8:06 AM
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wallythacker Page Icon Posted 2006-03-24 10:12 AM
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It must have been a DSTN screen. It was godawful ugly and hard to see in any light. It was built in the days Compaq was super cheap and using the crappiest parts they could source.

The guy I sold it to thought it had a nice screen, go figure. Methinks he was half-blind or a n00b or both.
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C:Amie Page Icon Posted 2006-03-24 1:34 PM
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STN screens are very easy to spot, they have a slight tint to them due to the extended twist in the single layer, it causes a colour shift which results in a slight tint to the screen. They're the cheapest kind of technology - though I did have a nokia cell phone with one not all that long ago. STN displays are monochrome (unless they're CSTN/DSTN)
DSTN's second layey invert Shifts the tint, meaning there is no afterglow. There's a word for the effect, but I forget what right now.

CSTN is Colour Super-Twisted Nematic, each pixel is comprised of three twisted RGB channels which wrap to form the desired colour.
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jornada720 Page Icon Posted 2006-03-26 9:51 AM
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I have a Jornada 720 (DSTN) and a 547 (CSTN). for some reason i think that the dstn is ALOT better: when your playing a game of solitaire for example, there are these awful patchesof light green behind the card (its hard to explain). I also now think that DSTNs are better. TFTs must suck up alot of power if they have all those transistors. And whats the point of sacraficing power and size just for a little more color depth?
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jornada720 Page Icon Posted 2006-03-26 9:52 AM
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I have a Jornada 720 (DSTN) and a 547 (CSTN). for some reason i think that the dstn is ALOT better: when your playing a game of solitaire for example, there are these awful patchesof light green behind the card (its hard to explain). I also now think that DSTNs are better. TFTs must suck up alot of power if they have all those transistors. And whats the point of sacraficing power and size just for a little more color depth?
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jornada720 Page Icon Posted 2006-03-26 9:52 AM
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I have a Jornada 720 (DSTN) and a 547 (CSTN). for some reason i think that the dstn is ALOT better: when your playing a game of solitaire for example, there are these awful patchesof light green behind the card (its hard to explain). I also now think that DSTNs are better. TFTs must suck up alot of power if they have all those transistors. And whats the point of sacraficing power and size just for a little more color depth?
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jornada720 Page Icon Posted 2006-03-26 9:53 AM
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I have a Jornada 720 (DSTN) and a 547 (CSTN). for some reason i think that the dstn is ALOT better: when your playing a game of solitaire for example, there are these awful patchesof light green behind the card (its hard to explain). I also now think that DSTNs are better. TFTs must suck up alot of power if they have all those transistors. And whats the point of sacraficing power and size just for a little more color depth?
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cmonex Page Icon Posted 2006-03-26 9:58 AM
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C:Amie - 2006-03-24 7:34 PM

STN screens are very easy to spot, they have a slight tint to them due to the extended twist in the single layer, it causes a colour shift which results in a slight tint to the screen. They're the cheapest kind of technology - though I did have a nokia cell phone with one not all that long ago. STN displays are monochrome (unless they're CSTN/DSTN)
DSTN's second layey invert Shifts the tint, meaning there is no afterglow. There's a word for the effect, but I forget what right now.

CSTN is Colour Super-Twisted Nematic, each pixel is comprised of three twisted RGB channels which wrap to form the desired colour.


thanks...

so, CSTN is not DSTN, right?

can you tell me what hpc's have CSTN?

and what is FSTN guess it's the monochrome / greyscale STN .. ? and the colour shift is the reason why they're so greenish / greyish?

Edited by cmonex 2006-03-26 10:00 AM
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